Nezhul wrote:Pure speculation. When a child several years since born (or even 15-20 years) is discovered as a gay - no one can actually check what there was or was not in virtue of his mother when she was pregnant. This is unchecked hypothesis, not necessary wrong, but pure speculative.
No, it's not speculative at all.
(Most people will not be able to access these articles, as they are behind a paywall - I'm just posting them to show Nezhul that research HAS been done on this):
Alliteration wrote:
No, it's not speculative at all.
(Most people will not be able to access these articles, as they are behind a paywall - I'm just posting them to show Nezhul that research HAS been done on this):
Dammit Alliteration, you just smashed my belief that homosexuality is biologically determined. The 30% or so discordance rate amongst MZ twin was a hammer. Also the Greece thing.
So, this leads to a dilemma. On one hand i can now see Nezhul's point that homosexuality display/mention should be kept out of the view of young children, to avoid making them homosexuals. On the other hand, these displays help young teens who already are homosexuals.
Human wrote:Dammit Alliteration, you just smashed my belief that homosexuality is biologically determined. The 30% or so discordance rate amongst MZ twin was a hammer.
I don't see why. First, the 65.8% concordance rate is quite high, in my opinion; considering the prevalence of homosexuality in the general population. Second, the discordance can probably be explained by differing hormonal environments in utero - about 60% of MZ twins share a placenta but have separate amniotic sacs. Third, epigenetic modification sometimes allows for environmental factors to change gene expression. Fourth, "These findings are interpreted as supporting the argument for a biological basis in sexual orientation." (from the abstract). I don't really see how you can object to this statement without also objecting to the findings.
On one hand i can now see Nezhul's point that homosexuality display/mention should be kept out of the view of young children, to avoid making them homosexuals.
Now we're getting into ethical claims here...why should we avoid making people homosexuals?
I believe no parent wants his child to adopt the kind of behaviour that leaves him without kids in the future. And let's not touch the means of adopting (which isnt allowed to gays anyway in most coutries) and having a fictional mother that will give birth to your child and scram away. That's just not the same.
Again, noone wants his child to be a gay. You don't have a choice but to accept it if that happens, but every parent rather not to. And I think that some things just OUGHT to stay natural.
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Alliteration wrote:
I don't see why. First, the 65.8% concordance rate is quite high, in my opinion; considering the prevalence of homosexuality in the general population. Second, the discordance can probably be explained by differing hormonal environments in utero - about 60% of MZ twins share a placenta but have separate amniotic sacs. Third, epigenetic modification sometimes allows for environmental factors to change gene expression. Fourth, "These findings are interpreted as supporting the argument for a biological basis in sexual orientation." (from the abstract). I don't really see how you can object to this statement without also objecting to the findings.
On one hand i can now see Nezhul's point that homosexuality display/mention should be kept out of the view of young children, to avoid making them homosexuals.
Now we're getting into ethical claims here...why should we avoid making people homosexuals?
Would different amniotic sacs lead to different hormonal profiles? I'm not so sure.
I'm not discounting the effect of genetics, but if environment facors can affect the outcome of sexual orientation, then it seems perfectly fine to manupulate this enviroment to achieve the desired effect.
Regarding your ethical query: if a parent can make a choice on whether to make his/her kid hetero, why should THAT choice be taken away from them by other people? If a parent wants to make her kid gay, let him watch gay porn/whatever; but it is inappropriate to affect the sexuality of the kids of OTHER parents.
Nezhul wrote:I believe no parent wants his child to adopt the kind of behaviour that leaves him without kids in the future. And let's not touch the means of adopting (which isnt allowed to gays anyway in most coutries) and having a fictional mother that will give birth to your child and scram away. That's just not the same.
Again, noone wants his child to be a gay. You don't have a choice but to accept it if that happens, but every parent rather not to. And I think that some things just OUGHT to stay natural.
Yeah...you don't speak for every parent in the world. Personally, I would not mind in the slightest bit if a future child of mine turns out to be gay; even if it means I get no grandchildren. I'm not so selfish as that - what I want for my future children is for them to be healthy and happy in life.
Human wrote:Would different amniotic sacs lead to different hormonal profiles? I'm not so sure.
I'm not discounting the effect of genetics, but if environment facors can affect the outcome of sexual orientation, then it seems perfectly fine to manupulate this enviroment to achieve the desired effect.
Regarding your ethical query: if a parent can make a choice on whether to make his/her kid hetero, why should THAT choice be taken away from them by other people? If a parent wants to make her kid gay, let him watch gay porn/whatever; but it is inappropriate to affect the sexuality of the kids of OTHER parents.
Completely different hormonal profiles? Probably not. But it seems pretty reasonable that they'd be at least semi-closed systems, so some slight differences would usually occur.
Re ethics: maybe it is ok to manipulate environmental factors to insure that a child turns out straight (if this is possible). But if this is ok, then so is manipulating those same factors to make them gay - which some parents would probably want. Of course parents should be able to choose whether or not to let their kids watch pride parades (and other similar examples). What I was saying was that I don't think it's ok to ban pride parades on the grounds that children might see them. One, this takes away the choice of some parents to "make their kids gay", and two, it removes the parental responsibility to ensure that kids only watch what the parents want them to.
Yeah...you don't speak for every parent in the world. Personally, I would not mind in the slightest bit if a future child of mine turns out to be gay; even if it means I get no grandchildren. I'm not so selfish as that - what I want for my future children is for them to be healthy and happy in life.
OK I'm probably wrong in talking about all parents.
And of course a parent want a child to be happy. But I'd say almost total majority would rather have their child happy while he has a wife and children, than him being equally happy while he has a gay boyfriend. (talking only about boys here, applies to girls the same way). Of course a rare parent would prefer having unhappy straight child than happy gay (although I know a few who claim they'd shoot their child if he was a gay or disown him, so who knows?). But being straight and having your own children from a beloved wife - is just something a homosexual cant experience at all. A gay person may have his love, and love him the same way straight love their wives. But he cant have his own children with that person - thats the kind of happiness he's totally stripped of. Of course he still may be happier than someone straight. But Heterosexual relationship just offers additional bonuses.
Also, how many problems a gay person experiences? They were discussed here, and so far its true. Bullying, having to hide constantly, uneasiness even with some relatives.
That all makes a gay life in my opinion much less easy and much harder to be truly happy with. That's why I say most parents want a straight person, and I actually don't know ANYONE who'd deliberately want a gay. A part of egoism too here. It's hard on a parents too if a child is gay. Let alone they have to comfort him while he's being abused for his orientation, they have to face uneasiness with friends or hide his identity, and of course they never getting grandchildren too.
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First, and no offense to either Alliteration or Nezhul on this, but you both have said that having a gay child means you won't have grandchildren.
That's not true.
As it becomes more and more accepted, more gay people are adopting children, or having a surrogate person to give birth to their biological child. So the pleasure of grandchildren is not stripped away from a person, simply because their child is gay.
Now, speaking as a mom of a 15 year old boy - when he was still in my womb, his dad and I discussed the "what if's"
We talked of not only, 1 - what if he wasn't into sports, something my husband is into, 2 - what if he found happiness doing a job such as a sanitation engineer instead of following in his dad's footsteps with computers, 3 - what if he found love and happiness outside of our race, 4 - what if he found love and happiness with another guy, and many other "what if's".
The same conclusion came each and every time, all we truly want for our son is for him to find complete and total happiness in life.
If he came to us tomorrow and told us that he has fallen for a guy, we would embrace this new person into our lives, just the same as we have embraced the females he has thought he was in love with.
Recently he quoted something to me, a conversation he had with another person, he quoted me saying, "you simply can not choose who you fall in love with."
Things I taught him....well, they "took". *big proud mommy smile*
There are people that have sex with the opposite gender, just to have sex - just like there are gay people that have sex with the same gender, just to have sex.
As parents, we want for our son to have sex because he cares and loves the person that he is going to be intimate with. Sex just to have sex, although physically satisfying, doesn't give one the true happiness they can experience in life.
True, there are issues that have to be faced when you go against what society deems as "normal", religiously correct, or morally right. But there are issues that we all have to face, no matter what sexual orientation we enjoy.
Going through a life loving two men, now three.....isn't easy. There are always issues. Most of the issues being the protection our son, from any negitive issues from cruel kids who can be verbally abusive.
But am I happy, do I lead a happy life, heck yeah...and so do my men, and my son.
If my son wanted to be with a guy, then he learns, even more then he has already, how to be tolerate of unique and different life paths, that others choose.
He learns to have a voice and speak up against bullying and injustice.
He will have to put up with hatred and name calling, but the trick with this is to learn that the people that do the name calling are ignorant and simple minded. They do not have the skills needed to broaden their thinking and accept each and every human being for who they are, who they love, and what brings them the most joy in life.
Being a parent I can express an opinion.
My brother is gay and is in a stable relationship of over 25 tears, longer than I was married for.
I have a happily married daughter who can't have children I have a other who is due to marry soon and has given birth to a daughter.
I am now single and have been for 20 plus years.
Happiness Is not what you are, its what you do with it.
I have said
"So long as you don't frighten the horses or harm the children you can do pretty much what you want."
So our extended family have fun with our own ways and those that differ.
In some eyes we are far from normal.
But we are normally very happy with everyone.
Lord Les Be careful what you wish for!
Growing OLD Is Inevitable,
But Growing UP... Is Optional
OR
Why do I have to stop being a KID now I can afford it.
I still think that even if you may love an adopted child (I wouldn't be able, personally), it isn't the same than your own. Surrogate mother, well, again, if there's a gay pair, the child will be only to one of them. Also I hear from time to time problems occur with those mothers where the court would actually take the side of a mother if she just wants to keep the baby all of a sudden.
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Nezhul wrote:I still think that even if you may love an adopted child (I wouldn't be able, personally), it isn't the same than your own. Surrogate mother, well, again, if there's a gay pair, the child will be only to one of them. Also I hear from time to time problems occur with those mothers where the court would actually take the side of a mother if she just wants to keep the baby all of a sudden.
See if you can think of adoption this way.....to be adopted is to be wanted so badly, to be chosen, to be a person that one or two people went to extreme measures to have.
Does that help? *smile*
And yes, sadly, some surrogate mother's change their mind....and that is sad, very, very sad.....for the couple...the child, and the court system.
If a mother decides to move in that direction, it should be a legal binding deal that no judge can over rule.
I will add one more into the mix.
My daughter who lives with me is not my biological daughter and is treated and loved the same as my three children who are.
I feel you must be careful presenting an untried opinion.
I will try almost anything twice before I pass comment/refuse,
Except Piercings and Tattoo's
Although if you want those it is your choice go ahead when you are of the legal adult age of/for where you live as they are pretty much permanent.
Lord Les Be careful what you wish for!
Growing OLD Is Inevitable,
But Growing UP... Is Optional
OR
Why do I have to stop being a KID now I can afford it.
Nezhul wrote:That all makes a gay life in my opinion much less easy and much harder to be truly happy with.
This all depends on where you live. :P
Just curious...how would you feel about a gay couple having natural children?
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Shell wrote:First, and no offense to either Alliteration or Nezhul on this, but you both have said that having a gay child means you won't have grandchildren.
That's not true.
You've got me there...I should have specified "biological grandchildren" (although, scientists are working on this...)
