The Great Monetization Discussion

[blarb]

I totally understand when Cock Hero producers want to earn some money with it. It's a shitload of work. It's similar to fan fiction. Some fan fiction writers are great writers, like some Cock Hero producers are great editors. But if they want to earn money with their writing/editing they have to transition to original material.

In Cock Hero this could be achieved by asking performers to collaborate with them. Nowadays, such collaborations are technically possible even if producer and performer don't live in the same country.

Another way would be to ask certain studios if they'd like to collaborate. Maybe some studios already have interest in making Cock Heros with their material, but don't have editors who are skilled enough to deliver something good. They probably don't pay well though.

[WatchItDry]

WID's work has always been very high quality from the very first Decadence Island Maze game they made here, and while they have swapped around road maps from time to time, they still deliver on that quality content. They built an entire world around CH and use that template to make fun and engaging story based CHs on the same level as Canto and Island (in my opinion).

Thanks for the feedback your support is appreciated.

Be sure and check back in November, I have something special planned for those who only re up once or twice a year!

[noblepaladin]

I totally understand when Cock Hero producers want to earn some money with it. It's a shitload of work. It's similar to fan fiction. Some fan fiction writers are great writers, like some Cock Hero producers are great editors. But if they want to earn money with their writing/editing they have to transition to original material.

In Cock Hero this could be achieved by asking performers to collaborate with them. Nowadays, such collaborations are technically possible even if producer and performer don't live in the same country.

Another way would be to ask certain studios if they'd like to collaborate. Maybe some studios already have interest in making Cock Heros with their material, but don't have editors who are skilled enough to deliver something good. They probably don't pay well though.

Yeah, if you want to make money doing this stuff, the correct thing to do would be to contact the porn studios. Because if you are trying to sell/monetize porn (that you don't have copyright to in particular) in a niche field like cock heroes or PMVs, you're going to spend a hundred hours and maybe get $50 if you are extremely good. This is like those OnlyFans girls who think that it is easy money and they put their nudes on the Internet forever, but they only end up making $50 in total, and that is from that one high school classmate that will share the pictures and vids with all the old high school classmates. I wouldn't do something that is obviously illegal (copyright infringement, selling porn without documentation that all the actors are legal age and are consenting) and creates an obvious digital money trail that lasts forever for such small amounts of money. If you are not okay with a story like this popping up in your social circle (i.e. everybody knows you spend hundreds of hours editing porn), don't risk it for $50.

I don't think there are many people with video editing skills that decide "I really want to edit porn for a living". They try to go to Hollywood, or they do jobs for advertising/marketing at big companies, etc. I suspect that if you contact a porn studio looking for a porn editing job, and you have a demo of your work, you will actually have a decent chance of getting a job. And you'll make far more money doing that than trying to monetize porn. There isn't a lot of money in porn.

[BlueM00]

Really? Music artists and DJs have been doing this for generations.

Really only one generation. Before 90s-era digital tech, musicians did not lift recorded content verbatim.

]
"The Lion Sleeps Tonight" was first rewritten in English in 1961.

[WatchItDry]

Hey Guys,

So this whole debate on Fair Use has been nagging at me a little bit. There seems to be some misunderstanding as to the intent of why it exists. Which is to not stifle the progression of the science and the arts.

And whether you can watch the Revolution series and experience the immersion of the journey they are taking you on. Or you just view a video to fap to. Doesn't take away the artistic merits of the work. Just your interpretation of it. And that is the beauty of art is that everyone can view it and experience it in their own way.

And just to further validate the use of porn as a medium, "Cock Hero" is starting to make its way into university text books. These are people with unbiased opinions just observing and documenting the media and art of our generation. So for them to not just acknowledge it's existence but it's artistic merits is kind of a big deal. I think anyway!

Now back to Fair Use. In order for this budding form of artistic expression to continue to grow and evolve it cannot be stifled by copyright holders. Which they will undoubtedly do. Not so much because they hate art but more the added responsibility of having to monitor all its uses.

Just to clarify Fair Use is not this blanket statement that applies to all Cock Heros. There are four factors which must be taken into consideration first.

The four factors of fair use:

1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes

Courts typically focus on whether the use is “transformative.” That is, whether it adds new expression or meaning to the original, or whether it merely copies from the original.

In the context of CH this can be looked at story vs compilation style editing. I wouldn't say any style is better than the other. It's more about the creator and their intent. Since if worse comes to worse they will be the ones having to explain the transformative nature.

Also I think their seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding regarding "nonprofit educational" and sharing your cock hero for free. If you created a how to edit cock hero videos tutorial and had a screen recording of you editing a couple random porn studio scenes together. And you were to upload the video somewhere that would classify as nonprofit educational. But just uploading it for free does not make it any less commercial. Because commercial does not just mean money but success. When we upload a video we want it to succeed. We want it to get views.

So being as transformative as possible is where our focus should be.

2. The nature of the copyrighted work

Using material from primarily factual works is more likely to be fair than using purely fictional works.

In regards to CH creation this has more to do with published and unpublished works. It would be much harder to claim fair use if you used someones private videos that were solely shared with you vs works that are widely and openly distributed.

3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole

Borrowing small bits of material from an original work is more likely to be considered fair use than borrowing large portions. However, even a small taking may weigh against fair use in some situations if it constitutes the “heart” of the work.

This is a tough one.

4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work

Uses that harm the copyright owner's ability to profit from his or her original work by serving as a replacement for demand for that work are less likely to be fair uses.

In regards to CH this looks at two markets the current market and the future market. Currently there's only a handful of creators. So if I were to post a ch video for free now it might have next to zero effect on a random porn studios ability to continue to earn. But left unchecked and allowed to grow unhindered and now you have 100 creators releasing compilations of all the best moments from all the top random porn studios. Now you will be damaging their ability to make a profit. Now on the other hand if you had those same creators all generating an income there's potential for a new market to form of these top random porn studious offering licensing for their scenes.

You can shoot and produce your own scenes but the cost would be astronomical. Given that the average ch production uses 100 or more scenes. You can also license some scenes at somewhat reasonable costs. But you will have a hard time finding more than a handful of scenes that are less than ten years old available for licensing.

Just wanted to share a few thoughts and experiences.

Have a Great Weekend!

[QueDrmXXX]

A great discussion indeed.

The most important point to me is that money turns creation into production, not necessarily bad, but always sad.

[Pseudonym]

My opinion about the monetization and bullying:

Lots of interesting opinions here and lots to think about.
For sake of full transparency, I have a monetized CH project of my own so there is obviously “conflict of interest” on my part. Although it is impossible to get rid of all our biases, it is important to be at least mindful of them.

I have limited understanding of a copyright and i’M nOt a LaWyEr. But!
Here is something interesting to think about:
Would the video portion of highly edited, 3 minutes long round that is a comprised of 50 clips from different sources that are originally 10-60 minutes long be considered fair use? I would bet yes.
With monetization? I’m not sure. Possibly not?
What about 5 minutes long round that is basically alternative edit of 10 minutes long source?
Hm… probably not?
The music portion?
Almost certainly not fair use. Right?

Sure, there are some rules and guidelines set in the law, but there is only one entity that can tell for sure. The court.
While it’s interesting to speculate on what is and isn’t fair use, and whether CH videos would fall under the protection (spoiler allert - probably not), at the end of the day, it’s all just speculation and guessing.
There is also one pretty important detail that haven’t been mentioned yet, which is that vast majority of these cases are not decided in court.

Let me give you an example and tell me if I’m wrong:
Youtuber uploads or streams a monetized video of his game playthrough. There is a music in the game which was made by the developer who owns the copyright. Our youtuber doesn’t have the license because there is no way to get it.
Now, technically, our youtuber can be sued for everything he’s got. That’s what the law says!
But, what is more likely to be the outcome of this?
Well, the developers might have a public policy that it is fine to use their music in this case. Problem solved!
Alternatively, they are not fine with this and will issue a DMCA strike. Our youtuber’s video will be taken down.

Thousands and thousands of these kinds of cases are happening every single day all over the internet and in the real world. Yet we don’t see all these people sitting in jail or paying millions in damages.
The way these issues are usually solved is by some kind of culture and mutual understanding. If that fails, there is usually a DMCA strike. If that fails, court is an option if the copyright holder wants to peruse the case, which most of the time isn’t worth it.
The law as it is written in the books is actually not enforced 99+% of times. The “effective law” is different.

Cool, so are we safe?
No.
Actually, the opposite.
Every single person on this forum who ever uploaded copyrighted material can technically be sued at any moment and possibly destroyed.

In fact, our doremi, who we all know and love can be technically sued for using that beautiful Czech girl’s image as his avatar. Would the fair use defense work for him? Would his argument that it’s cropped out, work out for him? Would his pleading to the judge, that this is completely insane, work? Probably.
But I don’t fucking know! Because that would be for the court to decide.
This whole fucking site could get technically sued and shut down because it hosts the eos images.

Here is another interesting idea to ponder upon:
Remember our youtuber? The devs are fine with their music being used and the video is up and our buddy is collecting money for all his work he put into it! Hurray!
OH! But wait a minute.
There is a management change in the game company and the new CEO decides to enforce their rights to the fullest and the most ruthless extent possible.
Our poor youtuber, who followed the public guidelines is now getting sued and his life is absolutely destroyed like lives of those poor mothers and kids in the old dark Napster days. Paying millions in damages or opting out for jail time instead. And it’s all perfectly in the right of the copyright holder to do.

Nah… that’s not what actually happened.
Our youtuber didn’t get sued, he was instead paid by the game studio to play that game because they calculated it will increase their revenue.

And then they sued him! Lol
Nah, just kidding! He signed a contract with them because he is one of the bigger ones.

Anyways…

So, what did we learned today?
Well, fuck me. Not much actually.
You are basically always doing something that is technically illegal, playing this guessing game where you try to manage your risk probabilities. You are trying to be reasonable and not fuck over the copyright owner party, while hoping they will be reasonable too and not fuck you over in return.

I don’t want to fuck over the studios and musicians who’s sources I’m using in my videos. I love them, I respect them for the hard work they are doing in this difficult field. I believe that their rights should be respected and protected. I want them to prosper. I credit them, I want for them to be discovered, I send portion of the tiny little bit of audience and traffic that I have their way. They probably made at least couple of bucks out of me/you.

Am I doing any damages to them?
Well, ask yourself this:
When you want to listen to that Vintage & Morelli song that you liked so much in my Blue Magic Challenge, where do you go? You fire up the CH video to listen to that song? Who the fuck stores their list of favorite songs as a stash of CH videos?! No! You go to your favorites on Spotify or Youtube and pay for that damn song in a form of subscription or ads.
Did you decided not to buy that cool lesbians video because you've discovered it through a clip in my CH and would likely not come across it othervise? What a loss... Tell me if that ever happened. Be honest.

If studio or musician ever contacted me and told me to take their stuff out and never use it again, I would comply, apologize and try my best to do them right.
I would love to be able to buy licenses from them for a reasonable price, or pay a reasonable percentage of my income in return for being protected from them.
But, they don’t want me to pay them.
I’m too small and insignificant.


I know what you think. I’m thinking the same thing.
Every criminal thinks that he’s actually not guilty. He is doing it for a good reason, he is a good person, he didn’t actually do anything wrong. It’s all justified using one rationalization or other.
Not me. I know I am.
I’m a criminal.
I truly am.
Not by how the law is enforced, but by how it’s written.

But, I’m fine with that. You know why?
Because I’m in a good company of criminals. :D
Yes, I’m talking about you. A lots of you.
The only difference between us is that some of you are thinking you are better than me.

I’m sick of the concerned moralizers who tell me what I’m doing is wrong or immoral or illegal. You know who I’m talking about. The good-doers who think that bullying creators out of this site is the highest form of virtue. You sick fucks!
Be honest. No really, look into your heart of hearts and tell me that’s your issue with authors monetizing their work. We both know it’s not.

You are not concerned. You don’t give a fuck about those people. You don't give a fuck about me. You don’t. So, what’s the issue?
If I’m wrong, then let me fucking crash and burn in the most spectacular way I can menage. At least it’s gonna be a fun to watch.

I understand if you don’t want to stand too close to me if that happens.

[lolol2]

Am I the only one who cannot follow what's going on here?
We have a very good starting post and 4 pages of good discussion with different opinions but (specially for the internet) in a very good behavior... nothing extreme or with hate.

And now we get that kind of emotional brake down as response from you? Can't follow what's going on...

[BlueM00]

Every single person on this forum who ever uploaded copyrighted material can technically be sued at any moment and possibly destroyed.

Not just the uploaders. Those who download can be sued. Some taking the moral high ground are simply wrong, and this has everything to do with them not paying for something.

They probably made at least couple of bucks out of me/you.

At least 1 studio has received payment from me as a result of something I saw in a CH-style production. They would not have received the money otherwise, as I would never have noticed them. I'm just not going to pretend that justifies my participation here, because it doesn't.

Bottom line: if adult video companies decide that CH-style videos are taking away too much revenue, they could come after everyone here. Those openly admitting "but I never pay for anything" may be first in the dock.

[zebbg69]

Really? Music artists and DJs have been doing this for generations.

Really only one generation. Before 90s-era digital tech, musicians did not lift recorded content verbatim.

]
"The Lion Sleeps Tonight" was first rewritten in English in 1961.

I am talking about digitally remixing the recording of others, as opposed to "remaking" a song by playing one's own version of it. That first went mainstream in the 90s. Or, maybe late 80s if that is when Run-DMC did their big Aerosmith collab.

[zebbg69]

Am I the only one who cannot follow what's going on here?
We have a very good starting post and 4 pages of good discussion with different opinions but (specially for the internet) in a very good behavior... nothing extreme or with hate.

And now we get that kind of emotional brake down as response from you? Can't follow what's going on...

I don't get it either. I thought we were talking facts about what is legal and not. That's got nothing to do with what OUGHT to be legal. I didn't read every word of all the posts, so maybe I missed something. FTR, I wish our awesome creators could do their thing without any repercussions, while the whole user base could easily and affordably pay whoever needs to be paid--but that legal framework and business model does not exist right now. I think a lot of studios & stars understand that our activity benefits them and so are not out for blood, but clearly many do not.

Also, you don't just get sued out of the blue. If a porn star, for example, wanted their avatar taken down from this site, they would ask the user to take it down. The suing only happens if they refuse. That is generally the principle in court: you only go to court after seeking to be "made whole" and failing. Of course there are exceptions and edge cases, but that is the big picture.

[edger477]

This whole forum is niche of internet, and subset of users who are creating content is niche of the niche.

Then within that niche in the niche, you have even more division - I guess 2 larger groups are users who create something for themselves and then share in case there is someone with similar taste, and those who like or are learning editing and share their creations to get feedback and validation when done well (which is important especially if you are learning something).

And only then you get to users who might not be in 2 groups above and be having different motivation for creating content, with some part of or possibly even entire of that motivation being monetary. Even if it was not so small subset of the subset, I think it is pretty cringe to discuss morality of that monetization on this site (I know we have some philosophers here but I don't think any of them care whether some other forum user does something immoral) so I won't, but from purely consumer perspective this is my view:
- if there is a content that I might enjoy, if it is free I will download it, and often just skim through it for 1-2 min to see that my time is better spent on something else - in most cases that has nothing with skill or creativity of creator itself, is simply type of content that doesn't really push my buttons (of course sometimes I find a gem that I like)
- if there is content that I might enjoy, but is not free, and I can learn more about it from user feedback and comparison with other content - I might check out that other content, and if it is very likely that I will enjoy the content, I will pay for it if amount of entertainment seems worth of my time (any price is just time because I am either selling my time to get money or waiting for some investment to pay the interest/dividend)
- if there is content that I do not know whether I will enjoy, and there is no way to get definitive answer to that question then I just skip it and move on, not everything is for everyone, and in context of the creation that triggered this thread, I am sure that those who enjoy that type of content already either know for sure whether they like it or not, or can find out with few questions.


Never allow fear of missing out to take control of you, always keep in mind that not missing on something will inevitably lead to missing on something else instead so just don't think like that.
Most things in this world are not free, and even most of those you can get for free have some value, you are just not paying for it.

I strongly believe this and I would be fine if that was part of forum etiquette:
Whether x is free or not and what is the price of it is up to the provider of x to decide.
Whether you buy x or not is up to the you to decide. And any arguments you might have about morality/legality/other aspects of setting a price tag on something should be a factor in your decision, as that is what you decide. You should not use those arguments to denigrate creator or try to bully them into changing their decision on setting a price tag for x - they are free to do so and if you do not like it simply don't buy.

Whether we want the forum to be place for that... I am not sure, I don't want advertisements to become main purpose of this forum (because then it lost its purpose). But also, paywalling something is decision that creator takes, and many creators here who created free things might decide to try investing more time and effort and consider it fair to charge for entertainment they provide. I would not like the forum to spiral into place where people spam advertisements for off-site paywalls, but I also don't want to ban it entirely because insisting on only sharing non-monetized content here means we only ever share content based on lower levels of effort/quality.

I would be fine with if there was a subsection "Paywalled content discussion" under General and there is a forum rule that what sits beyond paywall cannot be main subject of a thread started in other forum sections.

[Frantzo]

After reading this whole thread, I just wanted to point out something that has already been said but that I think is very important.

Firstly, our art (if you can call it that) is totally minor: it's a niche. A drop in the ocean of the internet. Cock hero genre will always be a "pirate" genre, i.e. illegal in the eyes of the law. Indeed, we download videos and music subject to intellectual property. Whether you agree with this legal concept or not, it remains a fact. From then on, we can forget about monetisation.

However, some creators push the quality of videos every day by investing a lot of time and money (I know what I'm talking about when it comes to money). I think it's normal to want to support some of them financially. You just have to accept that this support can only be limited. Limited in the sense (this is just my opinion) that donations are the only way (and even then, donations under the table without too much advertising). Because it can't be commercialised unless we all decide to open a studio, praying we don't get pulverised by Mindgeek.

For those who spend their time saying "I'll never pay to see a Cock Hero" let me explain the charges for making my latest Cock Hero:

- I have to pay a subscription to Adobe
- I had to pay for the videos and music (for ethical reasons)
- I also had to pay for the actresses' voices

I almost forgot to mention that I got two people to help me for free with the beatmeter and the script. Generous people.

It's my choice to want to pay for the videos and the music (I consider that making videos remains an activity for pleasure). We agree on this point. Nevertheless, some people need to understand that to make a good cock hero it takes investment. I don't want to speak for all creators but I think most of them want to offer the best experience to the player.

I will offer my videos for free. I always do.
But if people still want to enjoy these videos, in order to increase their quality and make them more frequent, we will have to accept donations one day. Not to be lucrative, but just to reduce the costs.

Less cost = more videos

PS: Cock hero video can be compared to mods in video games. Indeed, some moders who are passionate people make their work public for free, however some ask for donations to help them. Although they can't commercialise it as they use the files of a sold game.

I think donation is the future for Cock hero. A one time donation on small amounts like 1$ or 2$ via for example the ko-fi platform.

[Pseudonym]

Am I the only one who cannot follow what's going on here?
We have a very good starting post and 4 pages of good discussion with different opinions but (specially for the internet) in a very good behavior... nothing extreme or with hate.

And now we get that kind of emotional brake down as response from you? Can't follow what's going on...

Yeah, I came in little bit too hot yesterday. :D

I was reading the thread, writing down some responses and really enjoyed the discussion.
And then I came across one post that triggered the f out of me and I went off. :D
I was kind of responding to something that has to do with what happened in other threads, to other authors and it was all brewing in me for couple of years. So, now I see that it makes complete sense that it looks like it’s coming out of the blue. The context is missing.
I just don’t like when authors are piled on in some of those threads. I don’t like when some people say they have no respect for work of CH authors. And I don’t like when authors are told that what they are doing is immoral.
I’ve always felt like there is this weird disregard or even hatred by some of the members towards CH authors, hidden just below the surface, and it flairs up when money is mentioned. I feel like there are people who have very low view of CH authors.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I can’t shake this feeling and it makes me really emotional. I’ve been able to manage to shrug it off for years but yesterday it just exploded.
It was little bit exaggerated and childish, I agree. Maybe I should have took my own advice from the first post and approached the issue in more mature way. :D
I hope it makes more sense now.

Anyways, don’t let me derail this thread and keep the discussion going. I think there have been some very good points made about paywalls. They definitely work and can increase the revenue like 10x which can make a huge difference for someone who wants to do this as a part/full time job. But I think they also create this negative reaction. Voluntary donations seems like much healthier and friendlier model. Maybe there is a way to do some kind of incentivized voluntary donations where the content would be available to everyone? Maybe the NFTs as A Ghoul Editor mentioned? What do you all think?

The question whether the forum should stay free and not monetized, and what the rules should be so everyone understands and there is less conflict is also relevant.

[A Ghoul Editor]

And I don’t like when authors are told that what they are doing is immoral.

I want to second this sentiment.

To anyone who's on the fence about morality and legality, consider that reaction videos most of which (not all) are extremely low effort, and all of which make real money on youtube, are considered fair use and super duper legal.

But a well produced Cock Hero or PMV, which usually takes months of work to produce by a skilled editor and which results in a novel piece of video art which is more than the sum of its parts, no, we can't have that, that's stealing!.

Free your mind from the absurd legal fiction that is intellectual property law and just support the artists you love when you can.