On relationships, society and self-pleasure with CH / RLGL

[Sapphire]

Well, that was strangely therapeutic... I never told the full story to anyone.
Thank you for reading this shit Milovanians. :D

Appreciated your story. I too had a horrible relationship in the past, but not as bad as yours it sounds like. I'm grateful for my relationship now, and I wish you the best too. One thought: maybe Daniela is bipolar, but I wonder also if she is sociopathic. Some parts of your story sound like she could be.

I fully agree with you that love is the answer...and that's what I think the OP is missing, he's actually hating on those who are in good relationships.

[barebone123]

Well, that was strangely therapeutic... I never told the full story to anyone.
Thank you for reading this shit Milovanians. :D

Appreciated your story. I too had a horrible relationship in the past, but not as bad as yours it sounds like. I'm grateful for my relationship now, and I wish you the best too. One thought: maybe Daniela is bipolar, but I wonder also if she is sociopathic. Some parts of your story sound like she could be.

I fully agree with you that love is the answer...and that's what I think the OP is missing, he's actually hating on those who are in good relationships.

Here here, well said! And I loved your last post. Maybe we can keep the thread going for other men who are in crappy relationships, wish things were better. Optimism, some good chat, and different perspectives can go a long way to helping people change.

Thanks to edging_bliss for getting the ball rolling.

Sapphire, I had never heard of the "incen manifest", interesting. Men as self proclaimed victims. Well, you get what you pay for.
Though male role models in western society tend to be a bit lacking, so perhaps it is not surprising. But not insurmountable and we can all help each other.

I can tell you, the pleasure that comes from serving someone else in sex and someone SERVING YOU in sex in return in a loving relationship, and the euphoria of being collapsed on top of each other after fucking each other's brains out is WAY better than masturbation...and having sex with a sex worker can't substitute that. You know the "post-nut clarity" that comes after masturbation? You don't get that in sex in a loving relationship; it's just bliss, no drop from the high. And someone you know intimately, intimately teasing and sucking and fucking you to bring you pleasure? Masturbation can't compete.

Also, relationship are give and take, both supporting the other; not one "serving" the other. You are looking at bad examples of relationships and assuming they are all like that or that it is the only way to have those relationships. The other thread you linked, did you read the responses? People weren't commiserating at how miserable he was, they were sharing how to better communicate to improve the relationship. And you know why? Because they know communication works! Relationships can work.

THIS! I was laying in bed this morning thinking about this thread and it is so true. Look at what YOU bring to a relationship. Look at what you can do to help your partner. Physically, mentally, spiritually. Right on, Sapphire!

[book_guy]

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[JakofClubs]

A few years ago I got into the RedPill stuff for a couple of months like @Pseudonym mentions (spoiler: it's mostly about self-improvement). It absolutely explained some things about life, women and society that I never understood. I needed it to be spelled out as I never had a strong father figure to learn from and was sometimes being a sucker toward women. I saw a lot of anger on the manoshpere sites, mostly directed at women. But upon reflection I think a lot of the anger was men being angry with themselves for being fooled for so long. I'm not saying that everything they say it true -- maybe half of it is true, but it certainly explained some things, like the difference between male and female mating strategies. (Simplistic example: biologically, males product millions of sperm and reproduce the most when they spread their seed far and wide; women produce one egg a month and do the best when they choose the most fit mate(s)). And many other things that explain why men and women approach life and sex differently. Point being that no one side has a monopoly on the truth. You have to read widely and figure it out for yourself.

To address @edging_bliss, I was angry when I first reevaluated my thinking about marriage and relationships. I think a lot of that was being angry that the mainstream narrative I grew up with no longer being the modern reality, especially the utility of marriage as a legal institution for many people. The bright side is that it gave me the courage to get divorced and not feel like a failure.

Someone posted above about women getting the sort end of the stick in STEM fields. Being male and having much higher testosterone has its pluses and minuses. Men tend to get paid more today, but also tend to die earlier and are about 10 times as likely to end up in US federal prison. Right now, about 74 men graduate from college for every 100 women, in the US, but women tend to choose lower-paying majors, like social work and K-12 education. Women who are smart enough for CS often prefer careers like law and medicine.

Famously, most of the major tech companies have about 30% women in technical fields -- which sounds quite biased at first glance -- but about 30% of CS graduates are female, so it's actually representative of the available labor pool. I 100% believe in equal rights, and equal opportunity, but that doesn't necessarily lead to equal outcomes. I've never heard a feminist say that they won't stop until an equal number of women are in prison

[book_guy]

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[blarb]

What is it that we have to do, to engage with a woman with whom we will have this reciprocity. We want (a) to want to be there (she has to be hot enough, decent enough, pleasant enough) and (b) to experience reciprocity from her. You seem to know how to make that happen.
[...]
What is the effort that is necessary? Tell us the steps.

Frankly, it seems like what you and edging_bliss and the manosphere men want from women is grounded in porn fiction, not in reality. For example, most women don't look like porn actresses, because they don't have the time or the inclination to sustain crazy workout routines and diets, or to undergo cosmetic surgery. Also, no woman will be pleasant all the time, because like all people women have moods that will shift according to whats going on in their lifes right now. So, demanding such things from your girlfriend is unrealistic. It basically means demanding from her to invest most of her time and energy to warp her body and personality into whatever your idea of a great girlfriend is. Nobody wants a partner for whom he or she has to be a mere idea, so it's no wonder that you're alone.

A concrete step you can take is to get a reality check, ideally by a therapist who can help you to a more realistic and healthy look at relationships, love, sex and all that, but who will also listen to your doubts and take them seriously. This is a huge step to take. It takes tremendous courage to make yourself vulnerable, but it's important to do. Vulnerabilty is one of the main aspects of love. That's what makes it so scary. And I feel, that most men who have problems with women, are just extremely scared of love.

This is all I will say in this thread. I wish you poeple all the best.

[Sapphire]

So, my challenge to Sapphire -- please help get me laid?

Hi, book guy! I appreciate you well-thought out post and I hear you. I will admit, I have not suffered with quote "no options." I don't have tons of women throwing themselves at me constantly, but I have things that make me attractive - but nothing that isn't attainable for any guy. Will you ever be Brad Pitt? No, but then neither am I. Nothing I have requires plastic surgery. But it does require effort.

Here's the basic fundamental principle: everyone is different. This is I think a presumption we can all buy into. Yes, everyone is different; even twins have differences. But you see, this concept leads to another fact: every woman is different. And the next derivation: every woman is looking for something different. This is both daunting and also exciting - most women won't be looking for exactly you, but there actually is a very high possibility that quite a few women are looking for someone like you and out of them some may be what you are looking for. You can increase/decrease those probabilities with different factors...and those are the "effort" I mean.

Now, first, the answer you don't want to hear. I really can't give you specifics on what that effort looks like because there are almost infinite possibilities. Again, everyone is different. You are different than me, and the woman you are looking for is different than the woman I am looking for, and the women who are looking for you are looking for different things than the women looking for me. I could give you a list of things that I think could help your chances, but perhaps they'd be the exact opposite in your case. So it's not that I don't have any specifics to give you, it's that there are too many of them.

HOWEVER, what I can share is my own experience. So what I will share, take it with a grain of salt. It's my values, my experience, what I'm looking for, etc. First, some background about me. I personally prefer monogamous relationships and the traditional married with kids life. That's me. If that's not you, then take what I share and strain out the principles and apply them to your goals. I've had sex with multiple partners but I am currently in a very happy, very fulfilling, monogamous relationship going on eight years. It's weird, I visit this site not because I'm lacking anything, or because I'm trying to fulfill some unmet need...idk I just enjoy this community at times. If I never came back I'd still be just as happy; and if this ever interfered with my relationship I'd drop this in a heartbeat. It's going really well for me. So how'd I get there? Was it just a coin toss? Well...

The first step to raising the number of women interested in you is not focusing on women being interested in you. Ironically this is similar advice to manosphere - just without all the negative emotions toward women. The first step to me being more attractive to women I desire was taking care of and being content with myself. Things like eating well, exercising, getting enough sleep, having a balanced life without addictions, working on hobbies and goals, maintaining and developing healthy relationships with my family and close friends, etc. all make me feel better and more confident. Nothing to do with women...that's just a side benefit. Again, I'm looking for a woman who wants a monogamous, married relationship - and most women who are looking for that are looking for a man who is healthy physically, socially, mentally, etc. Will all this guarantee that I will find the woman I'm looking for? No, but it greatly increases the odds, and again even if I didn't find that woman I'm still accomplishing the main goal anyway, taking care of and being content with myself.

Another really important step is consciously processing values. Guys who tend to try to hit everything that moves miss a lot more I think than guys who are more methodical in their approach, and I think the main reason is because women notice this. Not high school girls, but mature women. They are looking for specific things too, and they'll pick up that you are more of a jack of all trades, equal opportunity guy who doesn't have the specifics they're looking for. For me, I processed things like "what does financial stability look like to me?" and "what sort of fashion do I like?" and "what are values that I put as high priority that I want a woman to share those values and what are other things that don't really matter if we disagree on?" etc. I was then looking for a woman who had similar goals or was attracted to the person I chose to be. Some of this is more for looking for a lifelong partner; but even if you're just looking for a one-nighter, trust me, knowing more about yourself and not compromising gives you more confidence and makes you look more desirable and less...desperate. The vast majority of girls, even ones looking for a one-nighter, aren't going to be interested in someone desperate...unless they are into desperate guys.

Once you have processed your values, then fine-tune them. For instance, with "what sort of fashion do I like?" it didn't really matter if I was into emo or country/camo or metro-sexual or boring etc. - there are women who are attracted to any sort of fashion. The thing that mattered was, once I figured out my style, to then fine-tune it. Be good at it. Personally, I'd describe my fashion as boring...muted colors, no labels or logos, t-shirt and jeans or casual exercise wear...sometimes going more fancy like dress pants and button shirt. So I fine tuned it; finding brands I liked, buying some more expensive quality but not gaudy clothes, color coordinating, etc. Figuring out a matching hairstyle I like that I can maintain. I like how I dress, it gives me confidence, and I look put together. Again, you can do this with any style, that's not what's important, the importance is fine-tuning it. Being generally healthy and clean, having your style of fashion that is noticeable you put some effort into it, suddenly can widen your pool dramatically. So fine-tune all the stuff that matters to you.

I could go on, but one final piece of advice that I know may sound nebulous but put some effort in trying to understand this - practice social skills. Everything else I mentioned primarily helps with that initial first swipe right AND with having a long-term great relationship afterward, but for the crucial time in between, the thing that can kill your chances in the first five minutes of conversation is sucking at social skills. And most of it boils down to not being a dick. If you're boring as hell, yeah they could lose interest. But if you've done the previous paragraphs, then chances are you aren't THAT boring. The bigger concern is shooting yourself in the foot. That can come in many forms. Being an asshole in life in general or being a narcissist will be readily apparent and that'll turn off many. Many incels think it's the jerks who get all the women, but that's not true; they get laid by hiding their ego, not being an asshole toward the woman (notice, the key is toward the woman...some women don't mind if you're an ass to others as long as you're nice to them, but I'm personally not attracted to those women cause they're shallow and short-sighted in my opinion; but if you don't mind sleeping with those women, be my guest). Being judgmental can slip out and be a huge turn off (unless they're judgmental too and you both happen to be judgmental about the same thing). Being too quick on the draw to seek out sex without wooing them first can scare them off; take your time, enjoy the moment, if you don't have sex with them it's not the end of the world like you might think - remember, you've widened your pool with the other advice above. I joined a Facebook group about women sharing the creepy dm's they get...oh man, the amount of times the women say they were initially attracted to a guy and the conversation started off good, but then the guy shot himself in the foot...it happens, it happens a lot. So how do you practice social skills? Well, tbh, anytime you interact with anyone. It goes beyond interacting with a girl you find attractive; even interactions with family and friends, with coworkers, heck with enemies, you learn more every time. But yes, also every interaction with a girl you like is practice. Yes, I have a great relationship now, but I've also been horribly rejected by another girl who led me on and hurt me; and then I was crying for an hour trying to convince her to love me back when she thought I was pathetic...I've grown a lot since then. I've also had times that I had a sexual relationship with a woman, then learned later she wasn't what I was looking for and I had to navigate how to tell her to fuck off...and I've learned a lot since then. I can look back at my past self and see how my social skills have matured, and how I could have easily become an incel too but thankfully I put in some effort and got better with my social skills. Idk, all I can say is at least for me it took practice. Lots of success and failure and growth.

Edit: blarb's comment above mine is excellent also. If anyone is looking for the pornstar in real life, they're in for a huge disappointment. My partner is hot (hotter than a pornstar imo), but she also has her moments of anger, frustration, hurt, sadness, just like any fucking human being man or woman. She's real life, and so she's not perfect, and that's ok because I'm not perfect either. But we do love each other and put in the effort and our relationship continues to blossom. Hope you find what you're looking for too!

Second edit: oh, and we have regular sex. Last night we had a great makeout session on the couch and foreplay, me fingering her and massaging her, then we moved to the bedroom and she gave me a bj and then I plowed her til we came. Was a good proper fuck. Is our sex life always perfect? Nah. But I've had sex with her probably 500-800 times in the past eight years. So do I have regular sex? Yes. Could I have regular sex with multiple partners or lots of one-night stands? Honestly idk, but I'm not looking for it, I'm very happy now :D

[book_guy]

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[book_guy]

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[kerkersklave]

Frankly, it seems like what you and edging_bliss and the manosphere men want from women is grounded in porn fiction, not in reality. For example, most women don't look like porn actresses, because they don't have the time or the inclination to sustain crazy workout routines and diets, or to undergo cosmetic surgery. Also, no woman will be pleasant all the time, because like all people women have moods that will shift according to whats going on in their lifes right now. So, demanding such things from your girlfriend is unrealistic. It basically means demanding from her to invest most of her time and energy to warp her body and personality into whatever your idea of a great girlfriend is. Nobody wants a partner for whom he or she has to be a mere idea, so it's no wonder that you're alone.

A concrete step you can take is to get a reality check, ideally by a therapist who can help you to a more realistic and healthy look at relationships, love, sex and all that, but who will also listen to your doubts and take them seriously. This is a huge step to take. It takes tremendous courage to make yourself vulnerable, but it's important to do. Vulnerabilty is one of the main aspects of love. That's what makes it so scary. And I feel, that most men who have problems with women, are just extremely scared of love.

This is all I will say in this thread. I wish you poeple all the best.

Yeah, you got this right. They have locked themselves into a very simplistic view of women and even humans all together. A few completely over- and misinterpreted statistics, and the complete disregard, that people are driven by much more than some basic sexual instincts. And from all that they have built an ideology that fits their frustrations.
They obviously deny that by repeating the same flawed claims over and over again.

[barebone123]

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[desertfox]

Desertfox, I wanted to chime in here that I thought your reply was very insightful and you've put words to feelings I also have that I may not have been able to articulate quite so well. Particularly:

Just thought it was funny that I am pretty close to 20 years married here as well. The route you described is exactly the one I found myself in. I'd say maybe 15ish years ago we were getting into a ton of fights when we almost never fought, and it was mostly me becoming more and more honed in on what I felt like I was missing in the relationship and ignoring all the things I was getting that had brought me there. I realized that my wife can't rewire her body, it works how it works, and I saw her pushing back at it and making slow progress for our relationship, you can't really ask for more than that, and seeing that and realizing I had unrealistic goals as well, made the anger bleed out and get things back on track. However those fights and arguments took time to heal because I let it fester for so long, we were all hair triggered for the normal reactions to events we'd expect them even before they actually happened. So when they stopped it took time to really see that and trust again.

I think in general two people just can never be perfectly synced with goals and desire fulfillment over the course of a long relationship so it's just important to make sure the things you really need are in place. Early on I didn't know what I needed, even though I was getting it. I needed that someone who listens to me, laughs at my jokes, gives me my space, gives me reassurance, effortlessly handles my anxieties and all that, and in turn it's my job to do the same for her, and I think it helps that we both give that to one another without making effort. It's only when we want cloths to come off and close contact that we both need to start steering the ships, and that was a skill we both needed to learn.

Ok, let's see if I can get this thread closed with this:

First off wow thank you for sharing. It's funny I usually feel like I can be more honest on a porn forum, we are already talking about how we jerk off in whatever way all the time so what's left to worry about people knowing about us?

I have to say that I want you to forgive yourself. From your story you sound like you spend very impressionable years being a victim of abuse. Why that night you 'got back together' stands out in your mind is because you were sexually abused by your partner, it wasn't about sex, it was about hurting you and then taking you right after, breaking you down and having her way with you. The truth is as you describe it, she raped you that night. It's hard to find people to take male rape seriously, but this is exactly what a rape is. Women feel betrayed when their body responds to a rape by getting excited, this happens for men too. Our bodies are designed to respond, and the betrayal of that is a hard thing to overcome.

If you haven't started therapy about this relationship and experience I would highly, highly recommend you start. I don't think that any amature here could begin to unpack what it has done to you. You may feel fine but it is very hard to discover that you may not in fact, be fine.

I'd also talk if you could about the incident hitting her. I think we are all drilled into this 'never hit a woman' thing as men. I understand the physical power imbalance for sure about that, however when being abused repeatedly it's pretty understandable to have a 'fight' reaction.

I'm not a person that gets into fights or is violent or anything like that. I've only hit two people in my life. The second was in 7th grade when a kid I kept trying to ignore, but kept hurting me more and more as he walked by. One time he hurt me enough that when I realized what was going on I had stood up and kicked his hip with all my force. I really just remember pain then coming to as he's staggering away. I had no control over it even though I was doing everything to just sit there and ignore him.

The first time was in elementary school and I pushed a girl in the nose. I was on the bus once again trying to ignore the two girls that were pulling my hair. One finally pulled so hard that she ripped the hair out. Same experience, I came to control again after I saw her staggering away. I had stood up and just punched out and hit her nose. The whole bus turned on me, how could you hit a girl, what is wrong with you. Made me hate myself more. I went and told my mom about it when I got home. She was on board with me about sometimes you get in a fight etc etc, then I said "her" while talking and shes like 'WHAT YOU HIT A GIRL!?!?!" like the pain I felt meant any less because female hands caused it.

Anyway my point I'm making is that extreme reactions of our fight or flight system just happen. Some fight, some run, and some freeze. Actually my first gf I had, the guy she was with after me, that we were both friends with, ended up raping her. She kept saying no, he kept saying yes. She tried to push him off, but he was a wrestler and in shape so that didn't matter to him. She didn't even think she had a right to feel she had been raped because they were 'dating' and she 'froze' and didn't fight through the whole experience.

Do you see the common trend here? We don't always have control of our bodies and what they do, we don't choose, the body chooses sometimes, even if that is to fight, or to freeze, or get aroused.

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I have a lot more to say reading everyone's posts here but am out of time to write at the minute. They are great and you are all amazing for sharing. I think that we congregate on this site for the teases and CH style videos for some common experiences we all have, while not in perfect alignment it's very worth it to hear from everyone that wants to share.

[Alex69]

Turns out this thread can become pretty therapeutic, and allows us share our perspectives about this, sometimes controversial topics.

I'm not a person that gets into fights or is violent or anything like that. I've only hit two people in my life. The second was in 7th grade when a kid I kept trying to ignore, but kept hurting me more and more as he walked by. One time he hurt me enough that when I realized what was going on I had stood up and kicked his hip with all my force. I really just remember pain then coming to as he's staggering away. I had no control over it even though I was doing everything to just sit there and ignore him.

The first time was in elementary school and I pushed a girl in the nose. I was on the bus once again trying to ignore the two girls that were pulling my hair. One finally pulled so hard that she ripped the hair out. Same experience, I came to control again after I saw her staggering away. I had stood up and just punched out and hit her nose. The whole bus turned on me, how could you hit a girl, what is wrong with you. Made me hate myself more. I went and told my mom about it when I got home. She was on board with me about sometimes you get in a fight etc etc, then I said "her" while talking and shes like 'WHAT YOU HIT A GIRL!?!?!" like the pain I felt meant any less because female hands caused it.

I have similar stories to share with you, from my childhood as well.

I've always been the polite, thin and shy type of boy. I've always preferred to stay away from violence and, in my adult life, I haven't had the need to hit anyone, but because I usually avoid this situation. Likewise, my body shape isn't the strongest, and many women of my age are actually stronger than me.

That being said, when I was a 8-9 year old boy, I was playing to table tennis with another guy. On class, I've always been the one bullied and seen as an easy target. That day, I decided to try table-tennis because my mom wanted me to do something I could enjoy, be good at, and hopefully help me socialise with more kids. And I tried it. And I liked it. To the point I realised I was better than I expected. Then, when I was winning to another player, a douchebag, a moron, started bothering me while I was playing in order to make me lose. This type of situation was common back then, I was the unpopular guy. But I was a bit fed up. This guy started to show his face behind mine, on my sides, over the table, taking space at my side, almost pushing me while I was concentrated trying to not lose the ball... So I waited to the moment when his face was near the trajectory of the ball. Then, with all my energy, when I was trying to hit the ball, I slapped his face with the reverse of the racket. And I acted like that was accidentally. It wasn't. His nose started bleeding, because, oh boy, he had a nose prone to bleeding. So the nearest teacher came, assumed I hit him on purpose, and I was reprimanded and subsequently expelled. A bit later, the guy with the bloody nose came by me, and said he was sorry about that. Maybe that day, he learned a lesson, just like I learned mine. Since that day, I have never, ever, played to table-tennis again.

I have had other similar situations, like those when a group of little boys & girls (around 7 to 8 years old) started following me and hitting me on the school playground, for the sake of it. Infant cruelty. I was several years older than them, but I was alone (I didn't have friends), and they used to congregate around me and started hitting me, kicking me, punching me like a punch bag. I felt like I couldn't touch them because they were almost half my height. Until one day (because this extended during weeks), I decided to defend myself, not just trying to evade the hits, but starting hitting back. One day, one of the little girls started hitting me with the upper piece of a tracksuit. The metallic piece from the zipper hurt, so I grabbed it during one of the attacks, pulled it in order to make her lose her stability, and bring her to the ground. I think I hurt her a bit, or the tears were fake, I don't know. She went to speak to the teacher who was guarding the playground... And he told me: "It's OK, I know what this girl does, and I know you're a good guy, don't worry". Later on, I was near her and her mom, and she started saying her mom "look, that guy is the one that hit me". Obviously I didn't pay attention, and apparently, her mom didn't either. This was during the 90s, I can't imagine what could've happened today, being recorded and uploaded and decontextualised in Reddit Twitter, only to be judged by thousands of people. But that's another story.

Getting back to Pseudonym's experience, I didn't want to say anything before because I didn't know where the tone, or the bias of the conversation was going to be headed at. But seeing there's a balance, and people can respectfully expose their opinions, I'd say he shouldn't blame himself because he was being abused. Violence is never justifiable, it is not justified in his case either, it is ugly [1] to hit a man, a woman, or a non-binary person, but he should think he was being abused, he isn't the bad guy in my eyes in this movie. Not at least for me. I personally have never answered this type of situations with physical violence, but I yell if they start raising their voice, touch some keys and attack me on my weak points. I don't know to what extent is considered gender violence if, on a regular discussion, a man and a woman are yelling themselves back, in a pretty aggressive way. But we are all human, and we all have feelings that can be hurt as well. And violence (verbal, psychological, physical) is, sometimes, a two way street, sadly. The wisest thing we can do, is recognise that violence in toxic relationships, and "abandon ship". Jumping out. Running away. Leaving. And you can only leave freely if you don't have any legal attachment to your partner. That's why I still think this relationships are the healthiest. Having attachments only makes everything more difficult, and stops us from leaving a toxic/dead relationship. That's just my opinion and I don't own the truth, I can be, of course, wrong, as any of you.

[1] Note: I'm not an English speaker so I didn't come up with a better adjetive

[book_guy]

By filling my first post with "good behavior versus bad behavior" commentary, I made it clear that I felt behavior was the important issue. Nevertheless, despite these clear statements to the contrary, I have been read, and taken to task, as not focusing adequately on behavior. Now, I am also being quoted and misquouted out of context, much to my chagrin. If my statements don't matter, then I can't make them, so I'm deleting them. I hope that those of you who falsified the quotations will do the same, to respect me and my actual opinions better. What you said I think, isn't what I think; what you quoted me as saying, isn't what I said.

This is a good thread, an important one. I trust that the rest of you will continue productively.

[Pseudonym]

Thanks for the concern desertfox. Just to make sure - I've been to theraphy. It's all good.

Though, the main point I wanted to express through that story was cautioning against ideologies (of any kind really), and perhaps show one way they can get a hold of a person. Maybe, there might be some understanding that can be drawn from it.

Sorry for the "fuck you" edging_bliss. As I've said, it was really meant with love. I wish you all the best.

Interesting discussion, I think I've said all I wanted to say.

Now, if you excuse me, I'll go back to editing and leave this thread to others.