Donations to the creators

[sublimateme]

Hello, I thought that it would be very cool if the creators somehow added the ability to donate for their work. Do you think this is acceptable? What do you think about it?

[A Ghoul Editor]

Bellow is an email I sent a month ago to the administrators through the forum contact form inquiring about their views on the promotion of NFTs on the forum associated with PMVs and Cock Hero videos.

As I explain in the email, I am not interested in donations. On the side of the creator, there is likely no realistic amount of donations that would justify the creative process in terms of time spent. On the side of the donor, they get nothing in return. What I am interested in is the wider promotion the PMV art form (of which I consider Cock Hero to be a genre). NFTs are a potential avenue for this which just happens to also provide some opportunity for monetization.

---
Hello,

I'm interested in creating NFTs related to my porn music videos and
advertising them on the milovana forum. I wanted to ask you if this would
be allowed or if it would be a violation of the terms of service.

The reason I would like to be the first on milovana to offer an NFT tied to
my movies is for the following reasons:
1. NFTs can be an avenue of monetization for video (and other) creators
that does not rely on gate-keeping content.
2. NFTs can enable creators to reach new audiences in NFT marketplaces.
3. NFTs can contribute to further establishing Cock Hero and Porn Music
Videos as a form of artistic expression, given the strong, established
association of NFTs with the digital art world.

As far as I can tell, the topic of NFTs has not been discussed on the
milovana forums before with the exception of one mention [1] which appears
to be made in jest.

On a more personal note:

I have made one movie in the past named "Symbol of Faith" [2] and tomorrow
I will be releasing "Symbol of Faith II" [3]. These movies are, for me, a
passion project. They are the result of hundreds of hours of work that
cannot be compensated by asking for donations or even by selling some NFT.
In this sense, I very much sympathize with the essence of the "Why Free?"
page [4] and I am not concerned with making money. Instead, I primarily see
NFTs as a potential vehicle for emphasizing the artistic merit of such
works and reaching a wider audience (points 2 and 3). Beyond my own work,
which I leave others to judge, there are many video creations which I think
are more than just clever ways to get aroused, and legitimately belong in a
museum. Essentially, the future potential for monetization is itself the
*means* towards the goal of wider artistic recognition. If I'm successful
at selling a PMV NFT for whatever low price and that paves the way for some
future creator to eventually sell a Cock Hero NFT for a substantial amount
of money, that is what would cause people to take notice and discover the
whole genre.

If you don't happen to be familiar with NFTs, a good place to start would
be Beeple's interview on Corridor Crew [5]. They focus less on the
technical side of crypto-currencies and smart contracts and more on the
dynamics of NFTs for digital art.

Finally, there was a recent thread where a creator asked for "donations" in
exchange for the second half of their cock-hero movie [6]. Aside from the
cited violation of the ToS, for which his solicitation was removed, he was
also met with polite but strong disapproval from other users who apparently
found the solicitation and the withholding of content to be distasteful. I
just want to express that I am sensitive to this issue. I believe that the
fact that NFTs do not require any content to be withheld would completely
side-step this issue, and would be less likely to offend. In other words,
if the user from the aforementioned thread had offered his video for free
like everybody else and then advertised the sale of an NFT, maybe he would
not have been met with such disapproval. Although, it's unclear if he would
still be in violation of the ToS, which is of course the reason for my
email.

As I'm passionate about both milovana and NFTs I hope you consider the
potential of what I'm proposing.
Thank you for reading my email and thank you for maintaining this website
that has been an important part of my life for close to a decade.
- A Ghoul Editor

[1]
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9789&p=298540&hilit=nft#p298540
[2] viewtopic.php?f=25&t=21636
[3] viewtopic.php?f=25&t=24447
[4] https://milovana.com/pages/whyfree.php
[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13U573keZ3A
[6] viewtopic.php?p=308022#p308022

[sublimateme]

Thank A Ghoul Editor you for а detailed and well-reasoned explanation. But I meant first of all the possibility of a voluntary donation to the author for their efforts. Voluntary donations without commitment from all parties.

All the same, NFT requires a certain restructuring of the usual thinking, as well as implementation into the familiar environment. I think this NFT is ahead of its time, at least in terms of the subject of our conversation. Although, I am sure that it is in this area that NFT has great potential.

But still, how appropriate would it be to voluntarily donate to authors for their work at will?

[doremi]

NFT is the ownership of an intangible object that speculators gamble with after it's created. It doesn't bring anything to the creator after the initial sales. If at least there were a cut of the increased value forwarded to the original creator, it would be interesting. But since there's none, it's a too complex process for little value. It would be better sending money directly to the creator.

That being said, Cock Hero productions being what they are, exchange of money, crypto is an issue that can't be solved.

[jgrants]

I am not well versed on NFTs. But is it possible to be open to both donations and have a NFT for the creations? I REALLY enjoy the community work but being it based on media and music owned by other's would it be possible to create a NFT for the curation and edit word of each of this creations?

[satn00b]

Since CHs are mostly copyrighted material, selling NFT (if I understood them correctly) might actually increase the risk of legal trouble by a lot.

[A Ghoul Editor]

I am not well versed on NFTs. But is it possible to be open to both donations and have a NFT for the creations?

Sure. These are not mutually exclusive. Asking for donations is as simple as sticking a btc/eth/xmr/<your favorite crypto wallet address> in your forum signature (assuming this would be allowed by milovana). I think some creators are already doing this.

I REALLY enjoy the community work but being it based on media and music owned by other's would it be possible to create a NFT for the curation and edit word of each of this creations?

Since CHs are mostly copyrighted material, selling NFT (if I understood them correctly) might actually increase the risk of legal trouble by a lot.

This point raised by both of you is a very good point. On a basic level it is easy to solve: The nft doesn't need to contain any of the infringing data. You could have just a title text with stock footage for which you have a license for commercial usage and you make a png or a webm out of it and that's your NFT. The association between that and the full movie is only implicit. The media of the NFT itself would not be infringing on any IP and so there wouldn't be a reason for any given nft marketplace to censor it. Currently, none of the cover images in the "New Releases 2021" thread (viewtopic.php?f=25&t=24555) would qualify for this. But the title drop from Symbol of Faith II, for example, which is just the title on top of stock footage, would qualify as non-infringing:

Spoiler: show

sof2-title-drop.png (604.06 KiB) Viewed 2596 times

(actually this particular example was free stock footage so I'm not sure if it was given with a commercial license, but the principle stands. You could integrate some other stock footage that you pay $30 for and gives you a commercial license.)

It should also be noted that since NFTs exist on-chain on any given blockchain, they can't really be deleted. But marketplaces and other gallery portals can choose to censor them to comply with IP law or for whatever other reason (people's feels).

Now, if the question is "wouldn't a big NFT sale bring heat to the actual project even if the NFT itself was non-infringing?", that's a different question. Essentially, this might be an inevitable consequence of wider popularity regardless.

Finally, I'll take this opportunity to preemptively answer another possible question: Why haven't I already done this?
Part of it was the consideration of the milovana ToS which was also the reason for my original email to the administrators. But there are two more reasons.

1. I'm not completely satisfied with the current state of NFT blockchains and marketplaces for technical reasons related to longevity and real censorship resistance.
2. I don't feel my own videos are popular enough to have a successful sale. If I did a sale that was unsuccessful it would taint the whole concept of PMV NFTs, possibly dissuading more popular creators from trying it in the future. And that's why I'm posting it here instead.

Still, I do believe in the concept. I just think it's a matter of the right person with the right timing to make it successful.

[drLED]

NFTs doesn't really provide a solution to the problem presented: donations to creators.

If I create and then sell an NFT over a video containing e.g. for simplicity a single frame of a model, then I'm harming at least 4 parties: 1. the model, 2. the owner of the license for that image, 3. the authorized seller and 4. the buyer of the NFT, because he could get the genuine stuff cheaper from the real seller.

But then the video contains lots of models from many different owners and its NFT might move about multiple clueless buyers. They're getting nothing at all, since it's connected to me only through delusion. The resulting loss of credibility in NFTs will then end up hurting artists as well.

It's true though that donations will not really pay for all the time and effort that creators invest in their work. What we can actually do, which will definitively be effective for them since they're not really in it for the money, is to show our appreciation by saying something nice, buying them a coffee, donating something on Patreon and so on.

And don't forget the models! I feel really sad with the disgusting things they have to read about themselves on the Internet, Pornhub comments and so on. You know, guys that take the easy free porn there for granted and, when not in the mood, do their best to demoralize and put them down. Girls totally deserve our appreciation as well.

[Pseudonym]

Unfortunately, I don't think that voluntary donations to CH creators will amount to any meaningful income since the fanbase is relatively small. (Unless the author is from 3rd world country or something like that.)
Having some premium stuff that people get after donating makes sense since it does increase the conversion a lot. But as you've said, it doesn't seem to be very popular among Milovana crowd at the moment.

That said, I personally think that it wouldn't hurt if every creator had Patreon or something like it. Authors are now basically leaving money on table. It's on them to weight the benefits vs potential risks.

Since CHs are mostly copyrighted material, selling NFT (if I understood them correctly) might actually increase the risk of legal trouble by a lot.

... On a basic level it is easy to solve: The nft doesn't need to contain any of the infringing data. You could have just a title text with stock footage for which you have a license for commercial usage and you make a png or a webm out of it and that's your NFT. The association between that and the full movie is only implicit. The media of the NFT itself would not be infringing on any IP and so there wouldn't be a reason for any given nft marketplace to censor it.

At that point you might as well create Patreon with only implicite connection to your work and the result is the same.
The problem is, the less explicit the connection and the less you promote it - the less people will donate to you.
Also, if the connection is explicit enough for your fans to understand that they are donating to you and your work, it's also explicit enough for the copyrigh holders to understand it too.
Profiting from NFTs would make authors equaly liable as if they created a Patreon. Wouldn't it?

The issue here, I think, is that we don't own licenses or permissions to use the content that we use, and there doesn't seem to be a way to acquire them in a simple and affordable manner. Or at all.
I don't know how we, as a community can fix that.

My personal approach:

Spoiler: show

I've got to the point where I've been making these videos for past 10 years as a hobby and as you've said, poured hundreds of hours into each release. Not because I wanted to become a millionaire, but because I love creating them.

I've been working on a CH Replay for about a year now. It's a pretty ambitious project that basically requires similar amount of work as having a second part time job. I wouldn't be able to justify this kind of time investment without Patreon and the project would never happen otherwise.

I plan to release the public alpha here on Milovana pretty soon, so I guess we will see what kind of reaction it's going to generate. It might lead to some productive discussion about the topic of CH authors making money. If nothing else, I'm sure it will at least generate a lot of controversy. :D

What will happen?
By far the worst case scenario - I'll get sued, it will destroy the community and I'll be universally hated. :D
By far the best scenario - Nothing horrible happens, it will inspire other authors to create Patreons and one day some kind of symbiotic relationship will develop between the authors and the copyright holders. (I can dream, right? :D)

With no clear solution to the CH legality issue in sight - I'm personally at the point where I just said to myself:
"Fuck it. Let's try it and see what happens." :D

[WatchItDry]

I've been charging for my work for going on 4 years now. The only thing that happens is the community will largely boycott your work. There used to be a huge outcry on all my posts on why all ch's should be free. But that seems to be dying out. Whether it's due to minds changing or they found it's just easier to ignore me.

The decision on whether or not to charge and how they charge should be left to the creators to decide what best works for them. There's anonymity concerns that most creators won't want to give up for whatever extra they may make. There's also creative freedoms you give up when you charge, since you now have to be receptive to your supporters.

Once a creator has made the decision to charge you should 100% support them. The adobe suite alone is about $60 a month. Which includes audition, after effects, and premiere. All the apps you need to make a ch. Yes there are free options but do you really want your creators struggling with work arounds or using that extra time spent making new releases.

And that's just the initial expense. Once a creator has a budget they can start to add their own unique touches and start to make the production their own based on the vision they have.

As far as copyright concerns I can't offer any advice on that. I personally add Ariana Grande on all my remixes hoping she will knock on my door one day.

If any creators do have concerns however I do have a collection of videos you can use without problems from producers. They are all a bit older but with a little creativity can be used to build up your exposure on pornhub. Maybe?

There's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes with porn work so I'm not entirely sure how pornhub works moving forward. But might be worth a shot. If interested just send me a pm.

[Pseudonym]

The decision on whether or not to charge and how they charge should be left to the creators to decide what best works for them.

As a personal decision - yes. While knowing that there is a risk involved since this isn't exactly legal.
On the other side, one could make an argument that if money is introduced and with more spotlight it could negatively impact other people and Milovana. So I wouldn't immediately dismiss that viewpoint too.

There's anonymity concerns that most creators won't want to give up for whatever extra they may make.

You can still stay anonymous. Or can't you?

There's also creative freedoms you give up when you charge, since you now have to be receptive to your supporters.

It depends on the donation/monetization model and the relationship and expectations that are established. You could still create whatever you want, and people could choose freely whether they want to support it or not.

Once a creator has made the decision to charge you should 100% support them. The adobe suite alone is about $60 a month. Which includes audition, after effects, and premiere.

I completely disagree with this. No one is entitled to get money just because they have expenses. Especially while guilt-tripping people about it.
It wouldn't surprise me if THIS mindset is the main source of your difficulties on this forum. It's very off-putting.

Imagine walking into a sweet-shop and the cashier telling you that you should 100% buy this cake because it costs a lot of money and effort to make. Don't tell me you wouldn't flip him off. :D

If any creators do have concerns however I do have a collection of videos you can use without problems from producers. They are all a bit older but with a little creativity can be used to build up your exposure on pornhub. Maybe?

I've seen you mentioning this copyright-free library of porn that you have. Can you explain it a little more? What kind of license it is? How did you obtained it?

[3xTripleXXX]

There are also excellent free tools. I dropped Adobe Premiere and After Effects due to the cost, and switched to DaVinci Resolve, and so far I'm really happy with it. It's professional level, and free for the basic package. And if you do buy it, it's a one time fee of a few hundred dollars. Just saying that expenses aren't necessary, and are the choice of the creator.

[WatchItDry]

As a personal decision - yes. While knowing that there is a risk involved since this isn't exactly legal.
On the other side, one could make an argument that if money is introduced and with more spotlight it could negatively impact other people and Milovana. So I wouldn't immediately dismiss that viewpoint too.

I don't really like to speak to the legalities of things but there is a whole community of creators on YouTube making music videos of edits sampling movies and tv shows. These edits are essentially the mainstream version of pmv's or ch's. All of whom have links to their patreons so they can continue to produce new works. Some of which do quite well I might add.

You can still stay anonymous. Or can't you?

Basically if you are getting paid you need to use your real name. Especially with adult work it's getting even more detailed.

I completely disagree with this. No one is entitled to get money just because they have expenses. Especially while guilt-tripping people about it.
It wouldn't surprise me if THIS mindset is the main source of your difficulties on this forum. It's very off-putting.

Imagine walking into a sweet-shop and the cashier telling you that you should 100% buy a cake because it costs a lot of money and effort to make. Don't tell me you wouldn't flip him off. :D

Yea sorry for being short. Of course it should be someone whose work you wish to support and help grow. I did have it in my mind to add something to that effect. But it sounded too much like you have to be good enough to charge. Which isn't the case when it comes to editing a ch. You just have to have the desire and a willingness to grow.

I just didn't want to discourage any potential creators from trying. Not trying to guilt anyone into supporting anyone else. I meant it more like if you want to support someone you should 100% support. There should be no need for further discussion.

This isn't the first time threads like this have popped up and they're usually quickly filled with lists of reasons why not to support creators. I usually don't bother to respond but since this time there seemed to be some interest from creators I just wanted to put their minds at ease that no matter how hard you try Ariana Grande will not notice you.

Also, Milovana admin never censored me or asked me to limit my posts. The one thread I asked them to delete was a release thread that was derailed and turned into a one sided discussion on why all ch's should be free. If thats your view fine. But I choose to share my work here for potential feedback good or bad. And since most of the comments were on ch's in general and nothing to do with me I asked admin to just delete it.

I just think that most of the cons sited on why creators shouldn't be supported are misleading and fabricated as a way to discourage creators from even thinking about it.

I've seen you mentioning this copyright-free library of porn that you have. Can you explain it a little more? What kind of license it is? How did you obtained it?

Some porn producers will sell you rights to use their scenes either by uploading to pornhub or to host on your site. There's different licenses you can buy. The newer stuff not only being more expensive but also comes with restrictions as to what can be uploaded for free and what needs to remain behind a paywall. So its not copyright free per se just stuff I acquired that I just don't have time to use. If you wish to get it yourself you will need to have some sort of legitimate site set up to be taken seriously. So either a tube site or pay-site. It really adds up though so I wouldn't recommend it unless you have some other uses for the content. Especially with all the industry changes it's way more trouble than it's worth.

[WatchItDry]

There are also excellent free tools. I dropped Adobe Premiere and After Effects due to the cost, and switched to DaVinci Resolve, and so far I'm really happy with it. It's professional level, and free for the basic package. And if you do buy it, it's a one time fee of a few hundred dollars. Just saying that expenses aren't necessary, and are the choice of the creator.

I haven't tried Resolve myself. I did use vegas for a few years and just recently switched to adobe. And just in terms of work flow it's night and day. Besides the time saved it just runs smoother as well. But yes visually and effects wise they all can be achieved between all nle's. I have also been hearing good things about resolves built in color grading so in the end might even look better.

[A Ghoul Editor]

I don't wanna drag out the nft sub-topic too much. I've already made my main points and the thread topic is about a wider issue. So I'll just try to briefly respond to drLED and Pseudonym.

NFTs doesn't really provide a solution to the problem presented: donations to creators.

True. But they're not mutually exclusive. Also, donations can be as simple as listing a BTC or XMR address. I understand learning to use crypto is a bit of an obstacle for many people who just want to type in their debit card somwhere, but crypto isn't going away. It's taking over the world. This is not investment advice and I'm not telling you to buy anything, but I am telling you that educating yourself on crypto both as a fan and as a creator can only benefit you.

If I create and then sell an NFT over a video containing e.g. for simplicity a single frame of a model, then I'm harming at least 4 parties: 1. the model, 2. the owner of the license for that image, 3. the authorized seller and 4. the buyer of the NFT, because he could get the genuine stuff cheaper from the real seller.

NO! I specifically gave an example of how you could make an NFT that would NOT infringe on any IP and would be completely legal. I just want to clarify that I am NOT suggesting that anybody do anything illegal or even try to trick people. Generally from your comment here it seems to me that you don't understand the overall point of NFTs. That's fine, I don't mean it as an insult. I've been in the crypto space since the beginning almost and it still took me a moment to "get it" in regards to NFTs. NFTs are freaking weird.

For the rest of your points drLED, I completely agree that people should make an effort to support creators they like, including the models, the studios, and even the PMV and Cock Hero creators. Again, this is not mutually exclusive with anything else. I for instance, torrented video games as a kid. When I got my first job as an adult, I never pirated a game ever again. It's not even like I felt some moral obligation. It just seemed obvious to me that I should support the people who make things that I like.

[...]

Since CHs are mostly copyrighted material, selling NFT (if I understood them correctly) might actually increase the risk of legal trouble by a lot.

... On a basic level it is easy to solve: The nft doesn't need to contain any of the infringing data. You could have just a title text with stock footage for which you have a license for commercial usage and you make a png or a webm out of it and that's your NFT. The association between that and the full movie is only implicit. The media of the NFT itself would not be infringing on any IP and so there wouldn't be a reason for any given nft marketplace to censor it.

At that point you might as well create Patreon with only implicite connection to your work and the result is the same.
The problem is, the less explicit the connection and the less you promote it - the less people will donate to you.
Also, if the connection is explicit enough for your fans to understand that they are donating to you and your work, it's also explicit enough for the copyrigh holders to understand it too.
Profiting from NFTs would make authors equaly liable as if they created a Patreon. Wouldn't it?

The issue here, I think, is that we don't own licenses or permissions to use the content that we use, and there doesn't seem to be a way to acquire them in a simple and affordable manner. Or at all.
I don't know how we, as a community can fix that.

1. Being kicked off of patreon depends entirely on Jack Conte's mood on any given morning. An nft on the other hand is more difficult to shut down. On a basic level, it can never be erased from whatever blockain it was minted on, which means you will always be able to sell it, transfer it, or interract with it in whatever other way. But it could be de-listed from any given marketplace if there are copyright claims against it, which is why I gave an example of making a completely clean and legal nft.

2. Regarding this specific point:

Also, if the connection is explicit enough for your fans to understand that they are donating to you and your work, it's also explicit enough for the copyrigh holders to understand it too.
Profiting from NFTs would make authors equaly liable as if they created a Patreon. Wouldn't it?

Imagine Bob. Bob is a gangster by night and he (allegedly) kills people. By day he's a musician. Bob gets caught by the police and is accused of murder. He's sitting in jail without bail waiting trial. Meanwhile a record label sells his completely legal music and he becomes rich and famous. Are people buying Bob's music because he's an exceptionally talented artist? Are they buying his music because they think he's a big killer? Are they buying his music as a political statement about social injustice and the oppresion of musicians?

It doesn't matter.

What matters is, his music is legal and people are buying it.
Whatever other crimes he may or may not have allegedly commited are irrelevant.

Again, I am absolutely not telling anyone to do anything illegal. I'm telling you the opposite: how to do a very specific thing that would by itself be completely legal, and also maybe innovative and outside the box.

I'll try not to spam this thread further with nft talk. If someone wants to talk about it more maybe we can make another thread. But I think I've made all my main points already.

The rest of the discussion about patreons is also very much on-topic. I'll even plug two people who I'm not affiliated with but I think deserve a mention:

• DigitalFiend has a patreon: https://www.patreon.com/pmvfiendproductions
  I haven't checked it out yet. But check out his "Blueprint Series" PMV on spankbang. He got a guy to write a script, a girl to voice act it and he did the edit. It's art: https://spankbang.com/5p8ad/video/digit ... t+series+i
• Tommie_tomm2 is doing video reviews of PMVs and even interviews with PMV creators such as this one where he interviews AlamoPreacher https://www.reddit.com/r/PornMusicVids/ ... _preacher/
  He's currently publishing his PMV reviews on onlyfans. I've actually checked this one out and he's really good. He actually puts effort into it and analyzes the PMVs on their technical and artistic merits. Worth supporting in my opinion: https://onlyfans.com/pmvreviews

P.S. Damn this is a wall of text. I need to stop effort-posting. I've got work to do.