Question for the Subs-- how did you get this way?

[SophiaStafford]

Your aptitude for getting what you want does indeed set you aside from most others, however it is not very different than submissives. The subs are very apt at getting what they want when you look at it on a grander scale.

Well, what I meant was-- perhaps my aptitude sets me apart from "normal" people. It's possible that most "normal" people would love to do the things I do, they just don't have the skills or the power to actually do them.

In contrast, "normal people" and subs clearly want very different things. The reason "normal" people don't get submissive experiences is that "normal" people don't WANT submissive things.

--

The alternative explanation, the one I'm inclined to believe, is that I am basically just as distant from "normal" people as submissives are. After all-- most "normal" people would find some of my darkest fantasies to be very stomach-churning as well.

I agree that there are weak and strong in each sex, but I believe that neither is innately superior in any aspect. I do believe, however, that most women wield greater power than men due to their sexuality. That doesn't make them superior, it makes them more powerful.

My addiction to Nietzsche betrays itself. Almost without thinking, I do use the term "superior" and "powerful" as synonyms. Granted, it has to be the "right" kind of people-- inherited wealth, nepotism, etc-- those might be technically power, but not of the sort that makes someone a superior person. But I digress.

I too agree the fundamental source of power-discrepancy between women and males is sexuality. As a rule, males want women far, far, far, far more than women want males. From thence, flows everything else.

Sophia

[georgecuck]

Well, as a newbie i figured I could weigh in on 'how i got like this'.

Truth be told,even my earliest sexual fantasies when i was 14 had a submissive element. I used to imagine being seduced by a particularly curvacious teacher and then told i was no good at sex, or tooo small.

This later developed to a stage where i would imagine she slept with other men to tease me, and demonstrate how it should be. I dont know why i had these fantasies at this age (as opposed to thinking about pamella anderson or whatever my friends were doing) but i really think they set the parameters for an adult life full of feelings of sexual inadequacy, but with these feelings being eroticlly charged, enjoying being told i am inadequate.

I dont know if this helps? Can say more if needed

And nice to be here,
George

[SophiaStafford]

So do you get more pleasure from the guy that starts off wanting to be dominated and wants to please. Or do you get more pleasure from the guy who thinks he can get his way in the relationship, but ends up so that his way is actually your way?

Apples and Oranges.

Someone who's already in touch with their submissive side is sort of like fast food or a fast paced movie. Quick, instant, disposable. You get what you want, when you want it, and you have to exert absolutely no effort to get it. It's hilarious, it's convenient, and it's a nice quick rush.

Meanwhile, a more long-term relationship, in person, where I actually spend the time to 'change' someone-- it's more like fine dining or an art film or writing a sonnet or composing a concerto. It takes a lot of time, a lot of forethought, a lot of practice. But of course, it's worth it. The highs you can take someone to are far higher, the lows are far, far lower. You can destroy, you can sculpt. It's a far more powerful experience, but rarer.

So, that's sort of the answer. I have both, I love both.

Sophia

[SophiaStafford]

Truth be told,even my earliest sexual fantasies when i was 14 had a submissive element.

Your earliest sexual fantasies were at 14?
Talk about a "late bloomer".

[georgecuck]

The idea of being 'destroyed and sculpted' is very poweful for the newbie submissive like myslef. I mean, it has always been there, but the idea of having someone to actually manipulate it, and make it more, is quite exclierating.

Well, the earliest that i remember... Although i think i maybe was a lte bloomer. Could be said I never bloomed

Also, your toxictreat site is wonderful

[Marke]

First I’d like to say ... WOW ... I’ve been erotically frightened and teased by your website since I first came across it so it is a real treat to have you post on Milovana. I hope you are happy with the responses you are getting.

How did I get to be submissive? Either I was born that way or became so at a very early age in relation to submitting to females. There were a lot of cultural drivers – respect women, never hit a woman, the role of mother and female teachers and other mature women in my early life.

So I would say that I have always been that way and also grew into it more and more as it is a great sexual turn on for me and something I can indulge in very easily.

I have not met a female who wanted to make me submissive, at least overtly. I would say however my wife manipulates me and controls me and that is all for the good as mostly I find it a great turn on.

So, I was wired that way and life has only strengthened that.

I’m more than happy to discuss more if anything I have said is of interest.

Thank you Sophia.

PS

Now I’ve read through all the posts and should add that I enjoy it when I see (and I don’t see it all the time) I am being tricked and manipulated and yet I still submit. It is the joy of release. Letting go.

[MisterBarville]

Fascinating topic--and obviously one that goes in a number of directions. I find the pseudo-consensual angle the most erotic. I think that is the thrill of tease and denial--it is about sex and power. Other BDSM is also fun, but it is usually about the top satisfying the bottom's kink; finding a top who truly enjoys inflicting pain and/or denying pleasure to a lover is difficult. And in any purely consensual relationship, including a professional, the bottom is always in charge.

I remember the first time I was really captivated by this idea--and long before I understood the label of "submissive." When I was a teen, my favorite form of pornography was Penthouse Letters, and back in the old days, there was an air of authenticity about them. Sure, a lot of exaggeration and fantasy, but most seemed to come from "real" people. For some reason, I always enjoyed the letters from women best--is this a sub tendency? I love Milovana because the teases are all from a femal perspective.

Anyway, I would read the letters, look at the photos, and jack off on a regular basis. One day I came across a letter that just burned itself into my consciousness--the first one I can recall coming back to again and again. It was written from a lady who described her idea of a fun afternoon or evening. She and her girlfriend would go to a bar and find a guy. After talking a while, they would invite him home. He would be beside himself as his greatest fantasy--a threesome with two hot girls-- was about to come true. They would drive back to her place, with him following them. Getting there, they would relax and have a drink. One of the girls would start talking about sex and ask if he wanted to see their breasts. He would of course say yes, and they told him "you first." Instantly his shirt came off and they did also, showing their gorgeous breasts. He asked them to take off their pants, and they did so, and he followed. He would ask them to take off their panties, and one would say again "your first!" He would take off his underwear, displaying his hard on. He would ask them to take theirs off, and the real fun would begin.

"Beg me" one would say. He would hesitate, and she would say again "Beg me. We are going to have some fun tonight, and you are going to be our sex toy. So get on your knees and tell me how much you want to see my little beaver." He would obey and after a few minutes, she would grant his wish. He would then have to beg the other girl. They would laugh and tease him, and if he put up with that, he would put up with anything.

After he was naked, they would ask him if he liked to masturbate. He would deny it, of course, and she would tell him he was a liar. "Jerk off for us." He would start to stroke, and she would warn him not to come. After a while they would tell him to finger fuck himself. "Stick your finger up your ass like it's a pussy." He does as he is told while they laugh at him. They play some other games. Maybe they let him try on their panties and walk around the room. If he displeases them, they give his cock a little slap. But occasionally a few quick strokes, just to get his attention and keep him dreaming.

But of course, this is not all about humiliation. They need to use him for some pleasure. They ask if he likes to eat pussy and he says yes. Well, this is another chance for some more begging--while jerking off again--telling her how beautiful her pussy is and how he wants to please it. She grants him the privilege: "OK, Mr. Cuntlapper. Suck away at my gorgeous pussy." He does his job and after her orgasm, it is the friend's turn. She loves getting her asshole licked and sucked while she strokes herself to an orgasm.

After all this, he has earned a reward. After all, they are not cruel. "You have been a good sport. Now you may jerk off." He looks stunned but after a few more strokes on his cock, he is putty again, and does as he is told. They make him come in his hand, which he then has to rub all over his cock like some sort of skin cream.

The only thing that ruined the letter was the ending-- he did not ask for their phone number so they could get together again. Talk about destroying the realism!!

As you might guess, this letter had quite the impact on an otherwise "normal" horny young man. I could not understand why the letter had such appeal. It even came from a city near my home in New Jersey, and I wondered if I should go there and check out the bars.

Maybe it is all about women who were so completely sexual, and who saw men as nothing but instruments for their own amusement and pleasure. In my own life, I never explored this aspect of my life until my 40's--after a divorce from an extremely vanilla woman. Even now, I do not know if I classify myself as a sub--it is a huge part of my fantasy life, and have explored it in some relationships, but I enjoy doing the dom thing for occasional play--it allows one to be creative. As a sub, I can imagine all sorts of cruel and imaginative situations and tortures, but it would somehow lose the magic if I said "do this to me, then do that then something else . . . ."

Just a few thoughts.

Mr Barville

[SophiaStafford]

First I’d like to say ... WOW ... I’ve been erotically frightened and teased by your website since I first came across it

That's something I hear all the time. My little project does seem to inspire fear even in the most submissive of males. There are also a lot of debates about the morality of what I do, which I can't say I'm surprised by either.

Whenever I find the time, I'm actually going to take my part of the project in an even more autobiographical direction-- one thing on my "to do" list is that at some point, I'm going to find the time to go home and go through all my old diaries of mine, find my favorite parts, and get them scanned. It'll be a little tricky because I had a sort of shorthand code I used that I had made up over the years, but I'll make a translation key or something, now that I'm officially "out of the closet".

How did I get to be submissive? Either I was born that way or became so at a very early age in relation to submitting to females. There were a lot of cultural drivers – respect women, never hit a woman, the role of mother and female teachers and other mature women in my early life.

Around 400 BC, Socrates said "Woman, once made equal to man, becomes his superior".

It's my favorite insight into feminism. The patriarchy is being dismantled at every turn, but men will always buy the drinks, pick up the check, buy the rings, and sleep on the uncomfortable couch whenever there's a dispute, begging to be let back into the bed. This isn't even about bdsm-- this is just society. :) And it's truly wonderful to behold.

Sophia

[coconuts]

Sophia,

Thank you for your insights....thanks to you I have just started reading Nietzsche!

[Jaberwocky]

Around 400 BC, Socrates said "Woman, once made equal to man, becomes his superior".

I would skip Socrates and use the Darwin point of view: "Survival of the fittest"

During the pregnancy of a woman, a lot of times, the hormoness of the man change as well. That man produces a bit less testosteron, and the male body starts to produce prolactin (women produce that hormone to stimulate milk production). This change in hormones prevents us men from running away when the woman we are with turns "fat". The simple reason for all this is because it is in the interest in the child that both parents stick together and raise him/her together.

Aware that (most of the time) both parents feel the urge to care for their children, you could say that children are superiour to us men and women! We mere mortals are only battling on the background for the second place.

...Anyway, our reproduction system certainly got screwed up somewhere during the human evolution.

[dark]

First I’d like to say ... WOW ... I’ve been erotically frightened and teased by your website since I first came across it

That's something I hear all the time. My little project does seem to inspire fear even in the most submissive of males. There are also a lot of debates about the morality of what I do, which I can't say I'm surprised by either.

The debate about moral shouldn't surprise anybody, because I can see very easy why this debate is going on since I read the most of your site by now. And I am certain you know why.

Whenever I find the time, I'm actually going to take my part of the project in an even more autobiographical direction-- one thing on my "to do" list is that at some point, I'm going to find the time to go home and go through all my old diaries of mine, find my favorite parts, and get them scanned. It'll be a little tricky because I had a sort of shorthand code I used that I had made up over the years, but I'll make a translation key or something, now that I'm officially "out of the closet".

Have big respect for that, because you tell public you are a bad person (viewed from our norms as human society) Also it is very interesting to see a dominant mind talking open about life. Not that I would be attracted to it, neither platonic or sexually. For a man like me who defines himself as sexual submissive it's educating, inspiring and helpful.

Around 400 BC, Socrates said "Woman, once made equal to man, becomes his superior".

It's my favorite insight into feminism. The patriarchy is being dismantled at every turn, but men will always buy the drinks, pick up the check, buy the rings, and sleep on the uncomfortable couch whenever there's a dispute, begging to be let back into the bed. This isn't even about bdsm-- this is just society. :) And it's truly wonderful to behold.

Sophia

Ok I could write a 10.000 word post about this topic since I am researching about for years. Let me state clear that any smart sounding quotes are never helpful in a discussion based on facts. I agree most religions abused the rights of women (still do) and depressed their potential. That women have potential is proven by several examples in this world. For example the whole micro credit system in the 3rd world countries is based on giving most of the micro credits to women. The reason is they can better care about the money, because they think primary about a progress of the company as a motivation to care about their families. Simple said they feel responsible.

There are also other examples, like a tribe in South America. There only females deciding political questions and also caring about the economic system. A german woman was growing up there and a while ago I have seen a detailed interview with her. It's fascinating how reasonable and responsible women can deal with power. The crux is... in a system not based on rough capitalism. If you look at examples in the western world also women abuse power. You Sophia are a great example, since your profile declares one of your hobbies is "Life Destruction".

Back to your quote. Why is it inferior to "buy drinks" for women, to treat them well, to protect them, to spoil them? From my understanding this has nothing to do with being inferior. I believe in some common universal rules. We are bound in a cyclus which is a lot bigger than us. It's a biological aspect of our being predetermined by the energy around us. And no I am not talking about spiritual energy. The equality of energy is a physical fact. Our universe is not based on destroying to survive it's about symbiosis of energy to survive for a longer period. Surviving is not the strongest but the fittest.

You can even take this example and scale it down to a normal relationship between a man and a woman. A healthy relationship is exactly like that. Both are giving up something to get something better they couldn't get alone. Since your attitude is to destruct, to rule, to win, I am shameless now and tell you my opinion is this attitude is inferior. No matter if a woman or a man adopts it. It's an attitude of destruction, not of creating. In fact your view and opinions couldn't be more stereotypical male attitudes.

I adore the female gender for some wonderful attitudes and I believe they are better skilled in socializing and standing for judgement. But sorry I don't see why women like you should be superior, beside getting drinks for free. I see you as a very intelligent person and have huge respect for you. It's very interesting to participate in your thoughts and hope you will tolerate my disagreement here

True strenght is not to change, strenght is the ability to adjust yourself and live in equality with your environment.

The term superiority is overestimated, because of it's unimportance.


PS. thank you for starting this wonderful and inspiring discussion.

[all2true]

I am not sure if sophia is still checking this post.
I have looked at toxic treat website
found it ver intresting.

I however am a romantic
I share my kinks with my wife.
Any relationship has give and take
which we play around with even doing denial for me.

I was concerned about 'pushing' peoples boundries.
I am not sure I have the words for this but here is a try-
if you care for someone you respect them, know them
however some boundry pushing can be fun but you really, really have to know a person well
inorder to push without losing the romance. A relationship could easily turn 'toxic"
and even somewhat abusive (in a bad way). I speak from expierence, I was married before
worked on being a sub then too, but my boundries got pushed too far, repeatedly, I enjoyed the expierence but lost the love for her. I only wanted the addictive sex, and slowly lost the love.
I wonder how a real life dom is able to get the love connection - a real love connection
I guess I am prejuding. But my expierence is once more than two people are in the relationship
things really lose the love factor.

[Forevergallant]

Hmm I think my first true taste that i enjoyed the thought of being submissive, was around 12, I read a book called A glimpse of Stocking. Not a great novel by any means, but the main character uses sex, and her sexuality as a weapon in many different ways. The part that got me, and I confess a section I maturbated to..many many times, was when she has one of her clients, tied up, in panties and strokes him to orgasm, talking to him in a superior way.. very hot.


Now, as for the whole argument about actual female superiority..well I disagree with that. Dominance and submission, in my experience, is about release for the submissive, and a power switch for the dominant one.

[Make_Me_Be_Nasty]

I believe for me, it started around 10 years old, I was always playing dressup with my mothers friends' kids who happened to be females around my age. She would dress me up with makeup and clothes and make me do stuff for her.
That happened until I was about 15 years old with her. Around 16 years old when horomones kicked in she actually had me nude and in make up.
I remember one time vividly, at a party where everyone was around (parents etc) she had me in her bedroom and had me get nude in her closet to, and hung socks over my penis and put a bra on me, and she proceeded to close the door and give me 15 seconds to do a new pose when she opened it.
I ended up dating this girl when I turned 18 years old. Once we started dating I became totally submissive and doing everything she told me. And handcuffs etc being introduced, and then from there, Its what I have craved.

It started pretty early on just by coincidence I believe. But I am sure glad it did happen.

[SophiaStafford]

Sophia,

Thank you for your insights....thanks to you I have just started reading Nietzsche!

Good work. Go read Thus Spoke Zarathustra-- it may change your view on the entire purpose of your life.

Sophia