Denial vs. Karezza

[tantricforever]

I've only recently discovered Milovana and exploring the surfaces of this scene.

Another area I've found recently that looks interesting is Karezza.
http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/what_is_karezza

What are people's thoughts here on Karezza vs. Denial and Dom/Sub relationships?

[Ms. Julie]

Strangely I have not heard of this before. Are you going to try it out?

[tantricforever]

I'm not sure. Not trying to reach an orgasm makes sense for myself because that typically means the fun is over. Not trying to get my wife to an orgasm when we make love would be... the opposite of my current goals. I'm super blessed that she can have a lot of them before tiring but its true that it does eventually lead to the fun ending... at least for a few hours.

In terms of it taking away your energy and needing time to recover I'm going to keep an eye out. Of course that is true for myself but I hadn't considered it from her side. We have had an intense past few days together. I held my energy back (day 16 now) and she let go of a LOT. Today she is exhausted and maybe even has a mild cold. It's most likely just a coincidence but maybe this is her body recovering from all that energy expelled.

From my experience with denial I can tell a much greater attraction to her. I look for opportunities to please her (foot rub, making coffee or meal, anything) at a much higher frequency and enjoyment for myself vs. when we aren't playing this game together. It's without doubt a positive factor in our relationship.

She has never tried to hold back an orgasm and I'm not sure she would want to but if I can get her to experiment with that the maybe we could try doing Karezza.

In some ways it sounds like the other side of the coin vs. the dom/sub style denial or that type of relationship in general. I'd love to hear other peoples opinions & experiences.

[Ms. Julie]

I don't see why it can't just be one way. One of the commenters on the article basically something similar i.e. he doesn't orgasm, but she does.

It does sounds a lot like denial to me though, just with a focus on intimacy and on avoiding edging. So it's kind of a sub-category of denial. It's hard to imagine that it won't have the same outcome i.e. a build up of arousal over time. I mean I think build up arousal is awesome, so, hey, whatever gets you there.

Try it even if it is one-sided. See if your arousal ramps up like regular denial or not, or is it truly something different.

[Weabols]

!

[Ms. Julie]

Weabols,

Well, try it out and let us know how it goes.

[andy wood]

I just skimmed the Karezza article, and I may finish it soon. It sounds like a sort of mutual tease-and-denial.

What I found really interesting, is what tantricforever said:
**********
From my experience with denial I can tell a much greater attraction to her. I look for opportunities to please her (food rub, making coffee or meal, anything) at a much higher frequency and enjoyment for myself vs. when we aren't playing this game together. It's without doubt a positive factor in our relationship.
**********

I have heard similar descriptions of how a male sub in chastity behaves towards his keyholder. But I always thought that in the case of a male sub in chastity, he was responding to the fact that (A) he wants to cum and (B) he cannot cum, unless his keyholder allows it. Being sometimes given orgasms, sometimes only edging, and sometimes no stimulation at all, all under the orders of a domme, is supposed to condition the male sub to think, feel and act in the manner you described.

But if both members of a couple practice Karezza together, do they both get this feeling of subspace and eagerness to please the other? I am still trying to understand the types of headspace that accompany chastity, and I have described that on another Forum discussion ["What do you find arousing about chastity?"]:

http://www.milovana.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13224

I am going to mention Karezza in the chastity discussion, and I hope that people from the Karezza discussion will also comment on the chastity thread.

[jackstock]

Karezza is kind of like tease and denial for both.... Actually kimd of a funny way to phrase it. It provides a genuine connection and bonding with partner without trying to "reach anything", thus you are always in that sweet spot, no just constrantly working for it. You dont cum, so you are constantly more and more loving toward your partner, while also very very fulfilled and not frustrated.

Sex in the Tao, is a little different. Taoist sex is NOT karezza, however. Emphasis is put on making the female pleasured, and the man cumming less frequently. He can vent his energy (like a de-stress) and/or pull it upwards into the body instead of outwards. The effect is improved energy,orgasms in body, organ orgasm, etc. But you still aim for that loving connection like in karezza

[tantricforever]

Sex in the Tao, is a little different. Taoist sex is NOT karezza, however. Emphasis is put on making the female pleasured, and the man cumming less frequently. He can vent his energy (like a de-stress) and/or pull it upwards into the body instead of outwards. The effect is improved energy,orgasms in body, organ orgasm, etc. But you still aim for that loving connection like in karezza

I think that is the closest description to what I strive for today. In essence my pleasure is through her and when done right I think I do experience an orgasm. Or said another way I get to experience her orgasms in a way that feels like its mine.

The challenge is how deeply I can connect with her and be along for the ride without going over the edge myself. CH videos and the amazing stuff Ms. Julie creates are great training for myself to be in touch with my arousal and achieve ever greater control. That lets me reach a deeper level with my wife before I eventually disconnect & distance myself a bit prevent falling off the edge myself. What is so exciting is that the depth possible together feels infinite. We have been together for 20 years but there is still so much more to discover and I frequently feel that we are breaking new ground.

Now, to loop this back to Karezza it makes me wonder if this approach is a little selfish? That isn't the right word but maybe its like I'm a vampire, feeding off her sexual energy while keeping mine for myself.

Honestly, I don't think either of us wants to change what is working for us now but I would like to explore Karezza a little. Or even just simpler, what it would be like for her to edge but not cum herself. That is just a tough proposition when there isn't such a big cost (the fun being over) to her orgasm vs. my own.

[jackstock]

You say it might be selfish, almoat like a vampire. But in the tao we see women as extremely strong sexually, because most women can orgasm over and over and still feel great. Women have tons of sexual energy to give you. Usually you conserve your energy as a man because ejaculating makes most men weak and tired.

[tantricforever]

You say it might be selfish, almoat like a vampire. But in the tao we see women as extremely strong sexually, because most women can orgasm over and over and still feel great. Women have tons of sexual energy to give you. Usually you conserve your energy as a man because ejaculating makes most men weak and tired.

How long have you been practicing this? I'm skimmed the surface of this and Tantra in the past but haven't progressed past the physical parts. I'm starting to open up my mind to accepting more of this, doing Yoga now for 2 years also. Any particular documents or communities you'd recommend for me to explore Taoist sex deeper?

[jackstock]

Im no master by any means. But some of this stuff has definitely brought my life to the next level.
You can get "the multi orgasmic male" book pdf for free on google. Mantak chia's inner smile and 6 healing sounds are also phenomenal

[tantricforever]

Thanks! I downloaded 'the multi orgasimic male' PDF a while ago but only skimmed a tiny bit. I dug it up and am reading more now.

So its funny I told my wife more about Karezza and the goal of not having an orgasm to retain that energy and attraction. I said there is also Taoist sex where they believe the women can orgasm over and over and still feel great. Women have tons of sexual energy to give out.

Then I told her that I was going to explore the Taoist side first. ;)

She has a pretty good laugh at that. lol

[jackstock]

Its like building up your love and appreciation for her the more you do it. Im sure she'll like that. My partners certainly dont mind it when i phrase it that way (as a way of explaining why i dont want to cum even though they want me to cum)

[skrote]

Just a little other food for thought.

http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/apr1/ankhing.htm

In summary, Ankhing is the art of harnessing the energy released during sex, and controlling the flow of that energy for a specific purpose.

This is a bit more on the metaphysical side, but I find it quite interesting. In other schools of thought, the energy dissipates at orgasm, of course the whole purpose of ankhing is to learn how to change that dissipation into something else.

~Skrote