Falkvinge talks about Child Porn

[LittleElfBoy]

For those who don't know, Rick Falkvinge is the founder of the pirate party in Sweden.

In this article: http://falkvinge.net/2012/09/07/three-r ... ng-decade/

he tells us about 3 reasons while Child Porn has to be re-legalized in the coming decade. I was shocked as I read this at first, but his reasoning is pretty solid. He also wrote an article why the Copyright lobby loves Child Porn: http://falkvinge.net/2012/05/23/cynicis ... hild-porn/

I recommend reading it. Because it doesn't address issues about the morality of child porn, but how horrible our laws regarding that are and that removing it from the internet doesn't help - not because it's a steam vent for pedophiles, but because it's hiding the problem. (Really, read it, it's hard for me to summarize it).


I really wish that he goes over the edge with this, but reading what he wrote left me worried about our future. Please offer your thoughts about this topic. (And please nothing about how it is disgusting to rape a child - that is a given)

[breathplayslut]

1. The ban prevents catching/jailing child molesters.

This akin to saying "Lets let people kill people, so we can catch murderers." Lets examine what they say further:

So, on your lovely stroll in the park, you turn a corner, and to your shock, see a 12-year-old being brutally raped right in front of you.

WHAM. You are now a criminal, guilty of recording, distributing, and possessing child pornography. You are now guilty of a crime that carries higher penalties than the rape and molestation of a child right taking place right in front of you.

The rapist notices you and laughs, knowing that you can’t do anything. If you were to call the police and offer to be a witness to the rape taking place before you, you would lose your job, children, and house over the worse crime you have just committed.

This is absolutely ridiculuous depending on where you are. In the US, the laws vary by state - but the general consensus is that if the event is recorded, and then turned into law enforcement as either a statement by the person recording the event, that the recording is treated as evidence, though circumstancial, due to the chain of custody, and may be dismissed. The only wrongdoing would be if the person recorded the event, and then did *not* make the effort to report the incident.

2. The laws brand a whole generation as sex offenders.

The base argument is that two consenting individuals younger than 18 are not actually legally capable of giving consent, and therefore falls under the category of statutory rape. True enough on the legality - but a hugely weak argument for legalizing posession of child pornography. The example goes on to explain that kids today are into documenting everything, and taking (and sending) pics of themselves, and then sending it to other teens is distribution/posession. Again - true, but the argument is skewed to the perspective that it's better to change the rule than to clearly define the ethical and moral implications of this to your kids. "Kids aren't smart enough to really grasp the implications of this, so lets change the laws to allow for the behavior". Come on ...

3. The free speech war is won/lost at the battle of child porn.

This argument discusses how special interest groups will use this as an opening to ban other forms of expression. The statement that comes to mind is "By banning *any* forms of expression, you open the door to banning *all* forms of expression." This is *again* a twisted logic - you could also say that by banning the practice of human sacrifice, you're denying the freedom of religion. What gets missed in translation is that the law also provides freedom to express as long as the expression doesn't do harm to others. Kiddie porn doesn't fall under this protection, because there is most definitely a victim.

You can legitimize anything by creative reasoning - but again, the thing that almost always gets missed is that by banning child porn, you *might* be infringing on certain narrow definitions of civil liberties - but by allowing it - you're almost certainly opening the door to all sorts of abuse, with guaranteed casualties.

Statement copied directly from the text -

Child pornography is horrible and awful from every angle and in every aspect. But it is not dangerous to the fabric of society. Censorship and electronic book burning, however, is.

You tell me if you agree - child porn is created by exploiting prepubescent kids sexually. Tell me that this isn't dangerous to the fabric of society. Go on - tell me that.

[Sexytimes 5]

I just want to say that Rick Falkvinge must be an idiot if what you say is true about him. Elf, why do you insist on bringing up this child porn shit on here over and over? The thread is dead man.

I want to be nice and respect you but this child porn issue makes me angry. It makes me wonder why you are searching for positive stories about it. Can't you find a few million stories that are derogatory toward the subject? I won't even go there again after the poke man fiasco and I ask you PLEASE, PLEASE don't bring up this subject matter anymore. We don't need to know about the perceived benefits of child porn from anyone. When you say child porn I think about little pre pubescent kids so please move on. I’ll make a few 3d and cartoon teases for you guys or search out a few hundred appropriate images for you to use if you will quit talking about child porn. I’m begging you because this is the only issue I personally cannot ignore.

[LittleElfBoy]

This is absolutely ridiculuous depending on where you are. In the US, the laws vary by state - but the general consensus is that if the event is recorded, and then turned into law enforcement as either a statement by the person recording the event, that the recording is treated as evidence, though circumstancial, due to the chain of custody, and may be dismissed. The only wrongdoing would be if the person recorded the event, and then did *not* make the effort to report the incident.

I'm no expert in law, but I never saw anything in Child Pornography laws about the intention of recording/saving it. That is also stated in the article.

The base argument is that two consenting individuals younger than 18 are not actually legally capable of giving consent, and therefore falls under the category of statutory rape. True enough on the legality - but a hugely weak argument for legalizing posession of child pornography. The example goes on to explain that kids today are into documenting everything, and taking (and sending) pics of themselves, and then sending it to other teens is distribution/posession. Again - true, but the argument is skewed to the perspective that it's better to change the rule than to clearly define the ethical and moral implications of this to your kids. "Kids aren't smart enough to really grasp the implications of this, so lets change the laws to allow for the behavior". Come on ...

As mentioned in the article, in some contries you can be sentenced to prison for having pictures of yourself at below-legal age. And seriously, the argument here is about 15-17 years olds, not 5-7 years olds. Turning 18 is no magical switch that allows you to be sensible enough to make your own decision.

This argument discusses how special interest groups will use this as an opening to ban other forms of expression. The statement that comes to mind is "By banning *any* forms of expression, you open the door to banning *all* forms of expression." This is *again* a twisted logic - you could also say that by banning the practice of human sacrifice, you're denying the freedom of religion. What gets missed in translation is that the law also provides freedom to express as long as the expression doesn't do harm to others. Kiddie porn doesn't fall under this protection, because there is most definitely a victim.

Not quite. Have you seen the other article I posted? The point is, countries block entire pages/servers for single images of child porngraphy that could -only in theory- appear. Have you even thought about why it is not allowed to have child porn, but every other crime one could think of? Downloading and redistributing a video with a teenager getting his eyes gouched out with a screwdriver and after that being killed is perfectly legal.

Child pornography is horrible and awful from every angle and in every aspect. But it is not dangerous to the fabric of society. Censorship and electronic book burning, however, is.

You tell me if you agree - child porn is created by exploiting prepubescent kids sexually. Tell me that this isn't dangerous to the fabric of society. Go on - tell me that.

It isn't, if it were, society would be already destroyed. Also, you seemed to have forgone a main argument in the article, if the pages with child porn are blocked, who will search for the for guys who made them? Right, noone. That is really the most preposterous thing about all this, by banning and blocking the stuff, we're merely pulling a blanket over the pedophiles. These laws aren't made to protect children, they're made so the general public feels better, cause they don't see the problem anymore.

I just want to say that Rick Falkvinge must be an idiot if what you say is true about him. Elf, why do you insist on bringing up this child porn shit on here over and over? The thread is dead man.

I want to be nice and respect you but this child porn issue makes me angry. It makes me wonder why you are searching for positive stories about it. Can't you find a few million stories that are derogatory toward the subject? I won't even go there again after the poke man fiasco and I ask you PLEASE, PLEASE don't bring up this subject matter anymore. We don't need to know about the perceived benefits of child porn from anyone. When you say child porn I think about little pre pubescent kids so please move on. I’ll make a few 3d and cartoon teases for you guys or search out a few hundred appropriate images for you to use if you will quit talking about child porn. I’m begging you because this is the only issue I personally cannot ignore.

This is another issue as I addressed in the poketease thread. This article doesn't say child porn is beneficial, but blocking it simply makes it an easy game for Pedophiles. The point is, the laws are made to hide the problem not to solve it. Please, this isn't about the fact that abusing childs is good, it doesn't even offer any support to pedophiles, it just states how the laws came together and what purpose they serve.

[SexualChoc]

it's illogical?

hmm well no one said laws made logical sense
as a FREE website we must be extremely careful to follow any laws
that might cause the site to be shut down.
why?

because they said so

not the best answer perhaps but then again...
try sharing the same ideas you just posted on a pay site, and see what happens.

[LittleElfBoy]

@SexualChoc: Show me where on this thread I mention this site's policies.

[anon3031]

The base argument is that two consenting individuals younger than 18 are not actually legally capable of giving consent, and therefore falls under the category of statutory rape. True enough on the legality - but a hugely weak argument for legalizing posession of child pornography. The example goes on to explain that kids today are into documenting everything, and taking (and sending) pics of themselves, and then sending it to other teens is distribution/posession. Again - true, but the argument is skewed to the perspective that it's better to change the rule than to clearly define the ethical and moral implications of this to your kids. "Kids aren't smart enough to really grasp the implications of this, so lets change the laws to allow for the behavior". Come on ...

So the purpose of child porn laws is to protect kids, correct? When a kid sends a picture of him/her-self to a friend, both that kid can be charged with possesion, creation, and distribution of child porn? You do realize that is the kid the victim which the law claims to protect. The current system is akin to charging a kid who attempted suicide with attempted murder.

3. The free speech war is won/lost at the battle of child porn.

This argument discusses how special interest groups will use this as an opening to ban other forms of expression. The statement that comes to mind is "By banning *any* forms of expression, you open the door to banning *all* forms of expression." This is *again* a twisted logic - you could also say that by banning the practice of human sacrifice, you're denying the freedom of religion. What gets missed in translation is that the law also provides freedom to express as long as the expression doesn't do harm to others. Kiddie porn doesn't fall under this protection, because there is most definitely a victim.

Human sacrifice is illegal because it has a victim, the human being killed. Child abuse is illegal because it has a victim, the child being abused. Videos of human sacrifice are legal, because they do not have a victim. Videos of human sacrifice which were made by sacrificing humans are legal, however the people who made the video are still guilty of the human sacrifice, which is still illegal. Videos of human sacrifice which were made without any human actually being sacrificed are legal.
Videos of child abuse are legal (as long as they do not meat the legal definition of porn). Videos of child porn are illegal because ___? Videos of child porn which were made without actually involving minors are illegal because child porn is illegal.

Imagine that rape porn was illegal in the same way that child porn is. Milovana would be shut down, and its users would be sex offenders. I assume that no one was actually raped/abused in the creation of any of the content for this site, however it is not my responsibility to follow the sources and validate that they were legally produced. If some of the images used did come from actual rape/abuse then the police should arrest and charge the people responsible, they should not arrest and charge me for viewing the images.

I want to be nice and respect you but this child porn issue makes me angry. It makes me wonder why you are searching for positive stories about it. Can't you find a few million stories that are derogatory toward the subject? I won't even go there again after the poke man fiasco and I ask you PLEASE, PLEASE don't bring up this subject matter anymore. We don't need to know about the perceived benefits of child porn from anyone. When you say child porn I think about little pre pubescent kids so please move on. I’ll make a few 3d and cartoon teases for you guys or search out a few hundred appropriate images for you to use if you will quit talking about child porn. I’m begging you because this is the only issue I personally cannot ignore.

Thank you for summarizing the reasoning for keeping child porn illegal. Someone brings up critisisms of child porn laws with specific arguments, and you respond with an emotional appeal, not attacking the validity of the arguments, but the validity of attempting to make arguments in favor the given position. I do not care what connotations you draw from the phrase "child porn", but the positions which cannot be argued against are the ones that need the strongest opposition. So please, stop supporting child porn laws so I can stop being on the same side as child abuses and get back to supporting a less disgusting group.

[Sexytimes 5]

If you insist. Ok! A nice little song this time.
Please stop so I don't have to write a poem next!
Sing along everone!




































On the first day of Christmas Santa gave to us.. An elf in a porn tree..


On the second day of Christmas Santa gave to us.. 2 cartoon teases and an elf in a porn tree..


On the third day of Christmas Santa gave to us.. 3 screamers screaming..2 cartoon teases.. and an elf in a porn tree..


On the fourth day of Christmas Santa gave to us.. 4 tempers flaring.. 3 screamers screaming.. 2 cartoon teases.. And an elf in a porn tree..


On the fifth day of Christmas Santa gave to us.. 5 feds a coming.. 4 tempers flaring..3 screamers screaming..2 cartoon teases.. and an elf in a porn tree..


On the sixth day of Christmas Santa gave to us..6 strokers stroking..5 feds a coming..4 tempers flaring..3 screamers screaming..2 cartoon teases.. And an elf in a porn tree..


On the seventh day of Christmas Santa gave to us.. 7 spankers spanking.. 6 strokers stroking..5 feds a coming..4 tempers flaring..3 screamers screaming..2 cartoon teases.. And an elf in a porn tree..


On the eighth day of Christmas Santa gave to us.. 8 Teasers teasing.. 7 spankers spanking.. 6 strokers stroking..5 feds a coming..4 tempers flaring..3 screamers screaming..2 cartoon teases.. And an elf in a porn tree..


On the ninth day of Christmas Santa gave to us.. 9 wads a blowing.. 8 Teasers teasing.. 7 spankers spanking.. 6 strokers stroking..5 feds a coming..4 tempers flaring..3 screamers screaming..2 cartoon teases.. And an elf in a porn tree..


On the tenth day of Christmas Santa gave to us.. 10 Hero’s failing.. 9 wads a blowing.. 8 Teasers teasing.. 7 spankers spanking.. 6 strokers stroking..5 feds a coming..4 tempers flaring..3 screamers screaming..2 cartoon teases.. And an elf in a porn tree..


On the eleventh day of Christmas Santa gave to us.. 11 Edges riding..10 Hero’s failing.. 9 wads a blowing.. 8 Teasers teasing.. 7 spankers spanking.. 6 strokers stroking..5 feds a coming..4 tempers flaring..3 screamers screaming..2 cartoon teases.. And an elf in a porn tree..


On the twelfth day of Christmas Santa gave to us.. 12 iced subs.. 11 Edges riding..10 Hero’s failing.. 9 wads a blowing.. 8 Teasers teasing.. 7 spankers spanking.. 6 strokers stroking..5 feds a coming..4 tempers flaring..3 screamers screaming..2 cartoon teases.. And an elf in a porn tree..

















It always feels good to sing a song about an issue.

[Incubo]

Imagine that rape porn was illegal in the same way that child porn is. Milovana would be shut down, and its users would be sex offenders. I assume that no one was actually raped/abused in the creation of any of the content for this site, however it is not my responsibility to follow the sources and validate that they were legally produced. If some of the images used did come from actual rape/abuse then the police should arrest and charge the people responsible, they should not arrest and charge me for viewing the images.

I disagree. For starters, by definition you can't rape the willing. What's portrayed here are willing folks engaging in rape fantasies. So by definition, they aren't rape. Further, if rape laws were the same as the child porn law, then any mention of it or portrayal of it wouldn't be allowed here. Thus the site would still be here, just without that particular content.

The very same logic applies to the kiddie porn thing. Pictures of an over 18 model portraying a high school student are OK as they are only pretending. However, pictures of an under age actual high school student are not OK because they violate California law.

Now, this is where it gets a little fuzzy...Using the same pictures of an over 18 model portraying and under age student, but where the story explicitly says she's under age....I believe the term for this is "gray area." In the case of this site, Seraph0x errs on the side of caution and rules this sort of thing inappropriate so as to avoid any legal battles that even if he were to win, would cost him more time and money than it's worth to run a free site. Can't say that I disagree with him on that either. It's safer for everyone to keep on the clear side of that legal line and not attempt to blur it.

Whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. It's still the law. Until you get millions of California voters to change their minds or move the server to your own island nation where the age of consent is whatever you decide it should be, the law remains and the site is held to it.

[denton]

Human sacrifice is illegal because it has a victim, the human being killed. Child abuse is illegal because it has a victim, the child being abused. Videos of human sacrifice are legal, because they do not have a victim. Videos of human sacrifice which were made by sacrificing humans are legal, however the people who made the video are still guilty of the human sacrifice, which is still illegal. Videos of human sacrifice which were made without any human actually being sacrificed are legal. [...] Videos of child porn are illegal because ___?

Are you seriously saying/suggesting that videos child pornography have no victims?

Have you given this matter any kind of thought ever? Wow.

[janmb]

I just want to say that Rick Falkvinge must be an idiot if what you say is true about him. Elf, why do you insist on bringing up this child porn shit on here over and over? The thread is dead man.

The single worst human trait I know about is the one you just displayed here: Wanting others to stop taking an interest in topics YOU don't interest in or dislike.

If you don't like the topic - stay out then? How hard can it be...

Asking others to stop debating a topic I hate or have absolutely no interest in could never ever, to the day I die, occur to me at all. It is the utter example of egoism and lack of respect for other opinions than your own.


Back on topic:

Falkvinge has a few points, but I think he takes it a bit too far on some of them.

I'm perfectly happy with legalizing a lot of stuff minors choose to do on their own behalf - the general disrespect for minors' intelligence and ability to make choices is staggering, so legalizing a lot more of their freedom of choice earlier, including sending nude pics to others if they so choose, is perfectly fine.

The aspect of hardcore child porn on the other hand, where children are forced into sex to produce porn, is NOT ok. There are obvious victims there, especially if they are very young - both because the trauma is greater as is the inability to make own choices or resist pressure.

[Sexytimes 5]

Jan, I have respect for people. The plea was based on the fact that we just discussed the exact same issue in the poke thread. The single worst trait that I'm aware of are that which child porn makers and pedophiles display. The abuse of kids. It's obvious that some people think of child porn as a negative thing that can't possibly benefit society and others think it is no different than any other porn.

The lines aren't blurry to me. Child porn is prepubescent kids. Little boys and girls who aren't developed. Bringing up the consent issue isn't relevant to me. The reason laws are set up so high (18) concerning porn is so millions of barely pubed kids don't end up in the industry before they are mature enough to make such a life decision. That's exactly what would happen if the age was lowered. Look at all the incoming porn stars. They all hit it big when they are 18-22. Would it be good if the new batch was 14-18 instead?

While the laws don't take into account that there might be some 14 or 15 year olds that could be mature enough to make such a decision it does protect the majority of them who obviously wouldn't be considered mature yet. So the law is basically a good idea. It won't hurt a mature teenager to wait till they are 18 to perform in the porn industry.

Base it on the 14 o 18 year olds you know. Some are way more mature than the others and the 18 law simply makes sense concerning porn because it protects the immature ones from themselves and the producers of porn.

[janmb]

The fact that you have a black and white view on this is quite fine, but don't expect others not to debate it even if you don't want to. No one is asking you to take part, yet you keep doing so :)

[Sexytimes 5]

Fair enough. I need to get back to spending my Milo time making teases anyway.

[janmb]

A perfect example of a win-win scenario