Status of Chat

[Oda]

Fine, fine... I got it... Turtle is awesome and i had absolutly no reason to say anything negative about the chat. Bye.

[Banquo]

2 Months since the last update... no progresse at all.. not one small new feature or something else... the only change that i see is, that the chat isn´t really stable anymore. It´s down more often now then before... so what shall i say? I am pretty dissapointed...

Yes, yes... it´s for free... i know, i know... and it takes some time to do some things, even if they are small... i know, i know...

But the fact is, that i don´t see nothing and that since at least 3 months. If you have really so less time, it would have been better to keep the old chat and not to create a completly new one.

I cannot help but agree with Oda on this issue, the current chat software is clearly no better than the flash chat, we have just as many outages as we used to get around this time last year. And with much less features.

Now admins and mods may laud the fact that people using iOS can now use chat, but Turtle has said this is one of the reasons chat crashes so often now. People using many different platforms to access chat.

I'm going to *OFFICIALLY* step down in terms of my being involved with chat in any capacity aside from being a user. I only ever initially agreed with Seraph0x to help get the new chat system up and running, and configured for user login. This has been done for a long time. There was never any formal talk about my doing anything else, I made the post about features that we could add, and I planned to code as I had time...

I think the disappoint that many people have experienced is because almost none of the features on that list have appeared. People initially criticised the new chat software for it bare bones style and lack of features and one of the main counter arguments was that the features would follow soon. Unfortunately due to whatever circumstances that wasn't possible. Everyone has responsibilities and commitments in their offline lives but that doesn't mean the disappointment is not there.

I do not have the time to get things done as quickly as some in the community deem appropriate, and rather than deal with any drama or fall out from that anymore, I'm simply going to remove myself the equation.

I'm sorry Turtle I like you, I consider you one of my friends, but I can't help but see this action as a petty act. To simply throw ones hands in the air and say "if you don't like the progress I am not going to help any more" Just doesn't sit right in my gut. No one was criticising you personally or saying you were not up to the job, Oda just wanted to know what was happening, people have every right to get frustrated with the lack of progress on this. For whatever reasons there has been a delay in improvements. One moment you are saying that YOU are going to make all these improvements and as soon as someone questions where they are, you decide to quit altogether. In my view all you had to say was "sorry guys I'm way too busy lately."

Sorry this is just how I feel.

Now I'd like to specifically address a few points from Oda's most recent post, so he has relevant answers to the questions he's asked...

2 Months since the last update... no progresse at all.. not one small new feature or something else...

In response to this, I've been working on coding a few things, but have had such limited time, you're right, there's not been a new feature for a while... Except that I fixed a couple thing

Didn't you create this very thread to let us all know how things were going on? I think Oda's post was a valid one, simply to ask what exactly was going on with the chat's progress.

And many are on from school/work so much they wanted a disable pictures feature if we added pictures, so they could still be in chat.

Unfortunately for those of us not viewing a porn site surreptitiously while at work or in a place of education who wanted pictures enabled this never became an option.

                



                




                


                Thanks Turtle.

This is exactly what I have come to expect from you Les, this kind of passive aggressive bitchy little post. If you have something to add to the discussion say something worth saying, don't just have a go at Oda with the same tired old rhetoric of Volunteers being above reproach. I think that argument has been done to death, don't you?

As for what happens with the chat now? who knows I cannot see it progressing past it's already limited features. Is anyone going to take responsibility and say what features we will and will not be getting?

[_bobby_]

I really liked the post by Les, I thought it was cute and eloquent and really summed things up perfectly (imho)... as for passive aggressive bitchy little post ...'nuff said

[Banquo]

I really liked the post by Les, I thought it was cute and eloquent and really summed things up perfectly (imho)... as for passive aggressive bitchy little post ...'nuff said

Clearly you don't know the history bobby.

[DoxysTurtle]

I'd like to clarify a few points in response to your post Banquo... As I feel they need to be clarified.

I cannot help but agree with Oda on this issue, the current chat software is clearly no better than the flash chat, we have just as many outages as we used to get around this time last year. And with much less features.

Now admins and mods may laud the fact that people using iOS can now use chat, but Turtle has said this is one of the reasons chat crashes so often now. People using many different platforms to access chat.

We in fact do not have as many outages as we did with flashchat. We're averaging one outage a week, with downtime from said outage under 24 hours. We were averaging multiple outages a week, often taking in excess of 48-72 hours to resolve. So there's a marked improvement.

As for client restrictions/how people were accessing chat, I in fact patched the items we were having issue with on the server side, taking care of that issue, which is why we no longer restrict clients.

EDIT: We also have considerably more people visiting chat / generally in chat than we did in flashchat. I unfortunately can't throw exact numbers at you, as I lack them from flashchat.

Didn't you create this very thread to let us all know how things were going on? I think Oda's post was a valid one, simply to ask what exactly was going on with the chat's progress.

That was the point of this thread. However I didn't feel the need to post updates when there's nothing to update on... I didn't take issue with the content of Oda's post (maybe the tone slightly) but not that he posted. Everyone is entitled to ask questions and get answers.

And many are on from school/work so much they wanted a disable pictures feature if we added pictures, so they could still be in chat.


Unfortunately for those of us not viewing a porn site surreptitiously while at work or in a place of education who wanted pictures enabled this never became an option.

I perhaps wasn't clear in my original post. I was taking additional time coding it, so as to accommodate everyone, by having a button for switching pictures displaying on/off. It's impossible to please everyone at once, however I can say, that from people who are regularly in chat, the general impression was that it was wanted to be able to disable it.

============================================
Lastly, to deal with your addressing my decision to resign from a position I never truly had, as petty, you're fully entitled to your opinion. Was this decision solely because of Oda's posts? Absolutely not, nor do I take offense at Oda wanting to ask questions or voice his opinions. Are there a large number of other external factors that occurred in PM or chat that heavily influenced my decision as well? Absolutely. Quite frankly, I don't have the time required/that people would like. My stepping aside, rather than being seen as petty, I was hoping might allow someone else who'd like to step up and help, have the urge to do so.

That said, you're entitled to your opinion, and feel free to express it.

[Banquo]

It's impossible to please everyone at once, however I can say, that from people who are regularly in chat, the general impression was that it was wanted to be able to disable it.

As you know, I was regularly in chat until the change over. And no attempt was made to enable pictures to be turned on in chat, so how can users have asked you for a button to disable it?

Fact is we were all told this chat software would be awesome and that new features would be rolling out. That didn't happen. Promises were broken and we all got very disappointed.

[_bobby_]

I really liked the post by Les, I thought it was cute and eloquent and really summed things up perfectly (imho)... as for passive aggressive bitchy little post ...'nuff said

Clearly you don't know the history bobby.

Oh you're saying it's all about the context, eh?

Well all I tried to point out, was that from an outsiders, more objective point of view, Les posted a rather cute and I thought likeable post. That's all.

[les]

@bobby thank you

@turtle
I seem to remember that the record in 123 chat was 24.
Most of the time it was 5 to 15.
I may be wrong but SC may well be able to corroborate this.

[Banquo]

Oh you're saying it's all about the context, eh?

Mhm *nods*

[Dream_On]

Though any downtime is bad it is still more stable than flashchat was near its end. This isn't saying a whole lot as any kind of uptime would be more stable than flashchat had been.

Just because features haven't been added yet doesn't mean that they won't be getting added ever. I don't recall there being a promise of features being added by a certain date. Sure it would be nice to have more features, but at least there is chat to be in at all. If getting features added asap is so important perhaps you should be asking what you can do to help get them enabled instead of slinging mud.

There is a right way to go about looking for answers and there is a wrong way. And the people that are asking about chat are going about it the wrong way. Please ease up on the tone and keep things civil. There is no need for name calling. This is not the first, second, third, fourth, fifth or even hundredth time people have pestered turtle about chat. He offered to help to try and make chat better, but it wound up being a bigger headache than it was worth due to the attitude of some of the people questioning him about it. It is his time he was volunteering and it is his choice to make if he wants to keep at it or stop. People were criticizing turtle personally, because he is the one that comes here and answered people questioning how things were going with chat. You also don't know of the things that were said to turtle in PM that were completely out of line.

Ultimately the final say on features is and always was Seraph0x. So if you really want to know I would ask him, but do try to keep it civil. The updates on the progress of chat are a courtesy, not something we are entitled to.

[Banquo]

Though any downtime is bad it is still more stable than flashchat was near its end. This isn't saying a whole lot as any kind of uptime would be more stable than flashchat had been.

Just because features haven't been added yet doesn't mean that they won't be getting added ever. I don't recall there being a promise of features being added by a certain date. Sure it would be nice to have more features, but at least there is chat to be in at all. If getting features added asap is so important perhaps you should be asking what you can do to help get them enabled instead of slinging mud.

There is a right way to go about looking for answers and there is a wrong way. And the people that are asking about chat are going about it the wrong way. Please ease up on the tone and keep things civil. There is no need for name calling. This is not the first, second, third, fourth, fifth or even hundredth time people have pestered turtle about chat. He offered to help to try and make chat better, but it wound up being a bigger headache than it was worth due to the attitude of some of the people questioning him about it. It is his time he was volunteering and it is his choice to make if he wants to keep at it or stop. People were criticizing turtle personally, because he is the one that comes here and answered people questioning how things were going with chat.

Ultimately the final say on features is and always was Seraph0x. So if you really want to know I would ask him, but do try to keep it civil. The updates on the progress of chat are a courtesy, not something we are entitled to.

I for one have not "pestered" Turtle, I have remained polite to him at all times, nor have I asked questions of him in any manner other than that. And I do not believe Oda has been impolite either. I appreciate your view that flashchat was less reliable but that is like comparing a pebble to a skipping stone. Neither is particularly perfect. And you bring up the good old "what can you do to help" which is another way of saying "put up or shut up." This same argument get's trotted out every time any one dare profane the management of this site by asking a couple of polite question. The fact that this little drama of Turtle "resigning" has come about just demonstrates the histrionics that occur whenever someone questions what is going on.

We all contribute in different ways Dream. I contribute by making teases and forum games, and by teasing the myriad of subs when I do decide to go into chat. You contribute by being a mod. So to poke the finger at me and Oda and say "why aren't you helping" is a bit much in my opinion.

No one has "slung mud" we just asked questions. And as usual the same old faces have wheeled out the same old rhetoric: "don't criticise volunteers." Well we have been down that road before.

You also don't know of the things that were said to turtle in PM that were completely out of line.

Well you clearly do...and as a mod, isn't that what you are meant to be dealing with?

Why turtle simply could not just have said to Oda "look dude, I'm way too busy with school etc." is beyond me. We were not out of line and we didn't pester him.

[DoxysTurtle]

Fine, fine... I got it... Turtle is awesome and i had absolutly no reason to say anything negative about the chat. Bye.

I don't have any issue with the way you said anything negative about chat. While I might not have agreed with your tone, you were far more polite than some others have been, and didn't make demands of me. I know it's not easy being a critic. You are not the reason I resigned at all, for the record Oda.

Why turtle simply could not just have said to Oda "look dude, I'm way too busy with school etc." is beyond me. We were not out of line and we didn't pester him.

I didn't claim either of those things of you two Banquo. Nor did I name names, of people who did, as that doesn't accomplish anything. The fact that I've chosen to step back, really isn't about anyone outside of my own personal decision on how I want to spend the miniscule amount of time I can muster to want to touch a computer for coding, outside of my work and school obligations. Yes there were factors that made this decision easier...

The actual items I'd committed to Seraph0x to do/help with have long been accomplished. I was not who made the decision to switch chat systems, nor did I ever promise on a set time table for features, as I realized I may end up too busy, and hadn't signed on to deal with doing any and all feature wants. I ended up a public voice in this thread, as a favor to users, so they might get timely answers around the switch, and have a place to put their 2 cents and input in.

You also don't know of the things that were said to turtle in PM that were completely out of line.

Well you clearly do...and as a mod, isn't that what you are meant to be dealing with?

Actually, Dream knows about them, as I vented to her as a friend, not as a mod. There was not something done that breaks Code of Conduct for chat, or TOS for the site, so nothing to be dealt with in terms of a moderator. Were there horrible things said, and people making demands that they had no right to make of me? Yes. Did anyone break any of the formal rules by doing so? No.

No one has "slung mud"

You did in fact sling mud. Oda didn't. You directly called me petty for deciding not to be involved in helping with chat here in any official or unofficial form. So I decided to make a suggestion when the old chat system became unstable and heard they were looking for a new one. I was asked if I would help when they decided to go with my suggestion, and then helped far more than I was ever asked to. The fact I decided to stop helping isn't "petty". Petty would be leaving Oda's post unanswered when I had decided to stop helping with chat. The fact that his post coincided with my making the decision to stop and announcing it, is purely coincidence.

DoxysTurtle wrote:
It's impossible to please everyone at once, however I can say, that from people who are regularly in chat, the general impression was that it was wanted to be able to disable it.

As you know, I was regularly in chat until the change over. And no attempt was made to enable pictures to be turned on in chat, so how can users have asked you for a button to disable it?

Fact is we were all told this chat software would be awesome and that new features would be rolling out. That didn't happen. Promises were broken and we all got very disappointed.

I fully acknowledge you were a regular. I also acknowledge that in my opinion, it's the people that make the chat, not the features. You left being a regular in chat, as you didn't like the new system. That's your choice. The only "promise" I know of being broken, would be that I would post regular updates to this thread. And I did break that promise, as I took the assumption that without news/progress there wasn't a point in posting an update with nothing. And in regards to the broken promise and your disappointment, problem solved, the weak link who broke promises is removed from the system.

As to the point of addressing the picture issue, there was an attempt testing out the module the chat system came with for pictures, it has some bugs, and isn't very cross browser compatible (something important). And so while working on deciding what to do about it, the opinion of those in the room was asked at various times, and more than once, and a common thread was people wanting the ability to enable/disable said item. I might point you to the very item of the website (notice the stuff on the front page about user blogs...) or to the various bugs and feature lists for the tease editors. Things take time, especially when being done for enjoyment / on the side.

[Dream_On]

Turtle said he would handle what was said in PM and not all of the PMs are in chat. Mods don't see what people say in PM unless it is brought up to them and when someone brings something up to me that needs action taken I take action on it. People that violate the CoC and continue to do so after having been warned are kicked and if they continue to do so after that they are banned. Ask around in chat, the banhammer has gotten its fair share of use lately.

The only drama with Turtle resigning is your response to it. Calling his decision petty is hardly polite. You chastize other people posting in the thread for commenting when they don't know all of what is going on, but you don't know all of what Turtle was dealing with. Turtle isn't resigning because things were questioned. He's busy and doesn't feel like dealing with the drama that has come along with helping with chat.

[breathplayslut]

I don't understand the upset. Turtle volunteered to replace the chat and apparently did so. A few people are complaining about features and a few have complained about Turtle stepping down for whatever reason. The one constant that I see is that once again the people who volunteer their time to make things better are criticized for not doing enough. What exactly is considered enough?

The argument about chat being less than it was is valid - it most certainly is. From a stability standpoint the argument could be made that yes, its more stable. It could also be said that the simpler a system is, the more stable it will be by its nature. Less things to go wrong. I personally liked the IRC system but that was done away with when the last chat administrator left. At least texturedshroom leaving didn't cause a huge headache.

The argument about more users in chat is just a numbers game. Im sure a site administrator could also point out that ttheres more users on Milo than there used to be so if you factor all things in equally, the per capita number of users in chat to the number of active users on the site are probably in line.

I think an important thing to remember in communication on a website is that you dont really get a measure of the tone of the message. Some people are taking offense, and getting defensive about perceived insults, while other people are just asking for answers. Maybe everybody should just take a step back, take a deep breath, and look at things rationally?

A volunteer has a right to regulate how much time they're putting in - hence the term "volunteer". I frankly hate the new chat, and havent used it much, but i can at least appreciate the effort a person put in with regards to making sure that a system existed for everybody to use if they want to. Everybody makes their own contribution, either by offering opinons on the forum, creating teases, communicating in chat, or just by being a member (I'm sure at some point, number of users is important to someone out there). Rather than criticizing someone for "not putting in enough effort" maybe we should just thank someone for putting in any effort at all. If this is the kind of thanks they get, its amazing anybody wants to help out.

[Banquo]

I don't understand the upset. Turtle volunteered to replace the chat and apparently did so. A few people are complaining about features and a few have complained about Turtle stepping down for whatever reason. The one constant that I see is that once again the people who volunteer their time to make things better are criticized for not doing enough. What exactly is considered enough?

The argument about chat being less than it was is valid - it most certainly is. From a stability standpoint the argument could be made that yes, its more stable. It could also be said that the simpler a system is, the more stable it will be by its nature. Less things to go wrong. I personally liked the IRC system but that was done away with when the last chat administrator left. At least texturedshroom leaving didn't cause a huge headache.

The argument about more users in chat is just a numbers game. Im sure a site administrator could also point out that ttheres more users on Milo than there used to be so if you factor all things in equally, the per capita number of users in chat to the number of active users on the site are probably in line.

I think an important thing to remember in communication on a website is that you dont really get a measure of the tone of the message. Some people are taking offense, and getting defensive about perceived insults, while other people are just asking for answers. Maybe everybody should just take a step back, take a deep breath, and look at things rationally?

A volunteer has a right to regulate how much time they're putting in - hence the term "volunteer". I frankly hate the new chat, and havent used it much, but i can at least appreciate the effort a person put in with regards to making sure that a system existed for everybody to use if they want to. Everybody makes their own contribution, either by offering opinons on the forum, creating teases, communicating in chat, or just by being a member (I'm sure at some point, number of users is important to someone out there). Rather than criticizing someone for "not putting in enough effort" maybe we should just thank someone for putting in any effort at all. If this is the kind of thanks they get, its amazing anybody wants to help out.

I broadly agree with this, but a volunteer should still be open to criticism, but certainly not the harassment that turtle has received from other users.

Ask around in chat, the banhammer has gotten its fair share of use lately.

Oh? There's a banhammer now, how quaint. Took you all long enough to find it, day was when people could nigh on destroy the chat room with spam and trolling and nothing would be done. At least there has been some improvement on this level.

The only drama with Turtle resigning is your response to it. Calling his decision petty is hardly polite. You chastize other people posting in the thread for commenting when they don't know all of what is going on, but you don't know all of what Turtle was dealing with. Turtle isn't resigning because things were questioned. He's busy and doesn't feel like dealing with the drama that has come along with helping with chat.

Turtle and I have discussed my reasons for perceiving pettiness in private, maybe you should disucss this with him.

And so while working on deciding what to do about it, the opinion of those in the room was asked at various times, and more than once, and a common thread was people wanting the ability to enable/disable said item. I might point you to the very item of the website (notice the stuff on the front page about user blogs...) or to the various bugs and feature lists for the tease editors. Things take time, especially when being done for enjoyment / on the side.

So if you happened to be in the room at magic hour your opinion was sought. Not a very fair system considering the amount of people that have decided not to use chat until it improves and the global user base. The times I and many others are in chat is usually when all the mods and admin are all tucked up safely in their beds. I'm not saying the outcome would be any different but a forum poll would have been a much better way to gauge opinion. This has been a bug bear for me since one admin told me that the users opinions were not wanted on how to move forward with chat.

And in regards to the broken promise and your disappointment, problem solved, the weak link who broke promises is removed from the system.

Turtle you are far from a weak link, and it was never my intention to imply otherwise. You work has been appreciated, but I have just been honest in my feelings on the time taken and the choices made. People, no matter what position they are in should always be up for critical evaluation.

Banquo