Public Chat Log Discussion

[Banquo]

So it's pretty clear that none of the Admin team are going to be able to or are either willing to reply to this, either due to cowardice or ineptitude. After a conversation with "Mistress" Jenifer in the chat this evening it is clear he has no intention on replying to the questions that have been raised here.

I see this as a signal that he is unable to give a real reason behind the decision to not make chat logs public anymore. And that he is unable to counter the arguments made by the many users who have contributed to this discussion. I find it quite sad that an admin wont give the users of a website the time of day that even a small response would take. This is a real shame on their part.

Shame on you Jenifer.

Banquo

[Mistress Jenifer]

So aside from wanting to be able to sit outside of the chat and know what is going on inside of the chat. And taking a copy of what has gone on since you joined the chat for your own private memory to recall at any time you wish in the future.
What other reasons do you guys/gals have for wanting to have access to the chat logs?


Because to be honest.
Why would you want to sit outside of chat, and refresh a log page every like... idk 10 minutes or however often you refresh it. Why not just be in the chat? You obviously have the time to sit at the computer if your occasionally refreshing the log storage page.


The whole argument about using the logs to solve issues in the chat is kind of, to me silly and not plausible. Think about it a moment. Say we have Person X in the chat and they are all honky dory and nice, there are no admins or mods in the chat. Then...for whatever reason (lets say they are in a private session with someone and mess up, and the dom(me) scolds them and punishes them), they explode on the chat as a whole. Cursing at anyone in the chat, threatening everyone in the chat, etc etc the whole nine yards. How is that going to be able to be solved by a regular member of the chat. Even if they have the logs, about the only thing you can do is take the log link and the time. And PM a mod/admin on the forum and paste in the log link and the time code and let them deal with it. And trying to calm the person in the chat, may only turn his/her attention onto you and you alone.
I'm guessing something like that example is what people have in mind when they say it allows regular members to help the chat. But still those regular members can't resolve the issue, they can block the person so they don't see anything the person says. But that resolves the issue for 1 person out of ___ that are in the chat.
And also, it wouldn't matter. Admins and possibly mods (need to bring up with turtle/seraph about them still and something else I will mention later in this post) have access to the logs and thus do not need a link to them. You can simply just PM them and say "Hey Person X was causing problems in the chat and ____ time today". And problem would be solved, the admin/mod would be able to look at the log and the time and see what was going on and resolve the issue how they see fit whether it be a warning, kicking (if the person still in chat), kick+tempban, or perma ban.


Now, I mentioned before about something later in this post. Well I want to bring up that idea.
I was reading the topic we have about this, well not this this but the flashchat logs. We were originally going to move the link of them and remove the button, effectively bringing us t this situation. Where public logs are non-existent and only for those who can see the chat moderator forums (so the three chat mods and all team members and all admins). Seraph learned those logs can be given a custom link that could be ether reeaaaaaallly hard to guess or impossible all together. Now one of the posts said something about *double checks*
"I'm onboard with the idea, there really isn't much of a need for normal users to have access to more than the current day's log."

Which got me thinking. Since we have a bunch of people who do use the logs for various reasons (shell, banq, sc, etc). That perhaps there is common ground to be found. Because the reason for keeping logs is for admins and mods to use them to deal with people who are being annoying/disruptive/etc in chat and forums. And this reason is the reason I pretty much believe in and is the PRIME reason I am against giving everyone access to the logs as they are.
BUT.
How much of the logs do you guys actually use? A day's worth? Two day's worth if you aren't around for a day?
Well. I have no idea at the moment of typing this as turtle is not around to ask and seraph is asleep cause its like 1am for him give or take. If it is possible though to have the current day or two of logs stored in one location and then after 24/48 hours automatically moved to another. Would this be alright with those that seem to be mainly speaking up for keeping public logs?

Now, the reason for keeping the bulk of the logs in 1 location for admins/mods is for obvious admin and mod duties. While keeping them for a temp time (actually they may not be moved but simply deleted from the public location, as it would be a good idea if possible to have the admin/mod ones fully up-to-date) would allow for people like shell, banq, sc, and whoever else used them for various reasons to still use them for those reasons.
Amount of days is not set in stone but won't be more then a week.
Also as stated, not sure if this is possible as it would be 2 scripts they'd have to write (one to duplicate the log as its created, and one to delete the log when it goes over ___ hours from the current server time). So even if it is possible, this may not be put in for a while, hell we only recently got the other rooms open to the masses.




Though I still have to say and I stand firm in the belief that public users don't need access to all the public logs. So to be blunt, unless the solution I put above is to your liking. There will be no chat logs for public users.
They are a tool for the admins and mods to use to deal with people who caused problems earlier in the day and left because they grew bored with it. And regular members of Milo do not need to actually seem them. Hell how many people actually knew how to access the directory of logs in the old flashchat and figured it out on their own and not from being told what to do or given the actual link. Doubt it was as many as ended up using it.

Though something tells me from an earlier statement of yours banq, that the solution maybe a workable one. Afterall, you cited something about someone saying "Oh there was this really good scene in here yesterday" and being able to go and actually look at it. And shell who said that she was able to seeing a collaring that she would have missed otherwise (so I'm presuming she went to the logs and read about it a few hours after it actually happened because she was occupied before hand).



ANYWHO!
I would like opinions from not just banq about the idea.



~Jenifer

[les]

Actually its
10 pm New York
3 am London
4 am Geneva


In the mean time I will sleep on your thoughts.

[Mistress Jenifer]

I've still never quite understood the need for a chat log for public use anyway.

You sit and refresh it without being in the chat. Its like, why have chat. Might as well just use the forum, since you can post and then refresh the "view your post" page every so often. Sitting watching the logs to me, defeats the purpose of chat.

*shrugs*
Not everyone will see it that way.

[janmb]

What other reasons do you guys/gals have for wanting to have access to the chat logs?

There are very legitimate needs for us mere, lowly "regular users" to log chats in their entirety indeed. I'm sure there are others I'm not even thinking of myself, but let me give you one concrete example (from direct experience in fact):

A couple years ago a very active domme here on this site were running a little game on the forums, where the "price" for winning was a one on one teasing sessions with her. I happened to be the lucky winner. The chat here on milo would been the perfect tool for that, apart from the glaring shortcoming of not being able to log the convo. The entire idea was, with consent of course, that the session was to be recited to the other players of that game in retrospect. For that you need a chat system which lets you take logs - which meant we had to find a chat tool elsewhere.

I very much agree that *private* chat convos should not be logged, but what people type in a public chat should be considered indeed just that: Public. As I just illustrated with my example above, chat isn't exclusively a real-time thing. Nor is this just about curious lurkers who want to see what goes on in chat without taking part. For that need you can just join chat and listen anyway, now can't you? The point is that in many situations the actual part-takers of a chat, willingly and with consent, WANTS to let others use their chat history for other purposes - such as forum games.

I respect the rules and definitely respect the idea of upholding privacy - but privacy is a term that does not apply to something that is fully public in the first place.

In fact, a very good middle road here which should serve everyone regardless of view on this topic, would be to add a few chat sections which ARE logged (available for all) in addition to the current non-logged ones, and clearly tag which are which. That way, both needs could be served - I would have had use of milo chat in my own example above, and those who desperately want to keep chat a RL, semi-private thing could still do that. Everyone wins.

[Banquo]

Well it seems it has taken me going into chat and confronting Jen to get her to actually respond to this one again. *sigh* but thank you for finally gracing us with your presence in the thread.

You still haven't responded to previous arguments and points raised, but nevertheless you have offered a solution so thank you. You have raised a couple of points, and not being one to ignore people I have decided to respond to each and every one of them. Even though you have not extended this courtesy to me and others in the past.

Why would you want to sit outside of chat, and refresh a log page every like... idk 10 minutes or however often you refresh it. Why not just be in the chat? You obviously have the time to sit at the computer if your occasionally refreshing the log storage page.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread has actually given that as a reason for wanting the logs reinstated. But Seeing as you seem to think this is one of our reasons I will answer it. Just because one is at a computer, doesn't mean being in chat is going to be possible. For example, there could be something interesting going on in chat, a scene or a collaring for example. But you could be in work, or in a public place and unable to actually be in the chat for fear of NSFW pictures popping up. Or someone recognising the Milovana name. Or you might not have the time to actually concentrate on the chat and respond to messages etc. But you want to watch whatever is going on in the chat room, because hell your nosey and you want to watch. Using the old system one could do this. Simply sit and enjoy watching without taking part. Is this really such a crime? After all everyone has their own interests, fetishes etc. Is it not possible that for some people the voyeuristic nature of doing this is interesting? Or are you going to exclude that fetish from this wonderful open and welcoming website?

the admin/mod would be able to look at the log and the time and see what was going on and resolve the issue how they see fit whether it be a warning, kicking (if the person still in chat), kick+tempban, or perma ban.

Yes because you can hand on heart say that this has happened in the past with users who have casued trouble can you? prompt direct action from the mods? or feeble hand wringing and excuses of "seraph doesn't like it when we ban people"

Tell me how long did it take you to deal with a certain insectoid named villain who was plaguing the chat and harassing and bullying users? Was this dealt with in a matter of days? *shakes head* No? A Week or two surely? *shakes head* No? it took you how many months to deal with this pest? *shocked face* I would applaud you, but I don't want to seem sarcastic.

So now you might see why some users feel the need to be able to stick up for themselves. If you're moderation team actually did their job when problems arose I don't think that particular bug bear would be an issue. But that is by the by and really doesn't have a lot to do with the reasons the majority of people I speak for want the logs back.

Which got me thinking. Since we have a bunch of people who do use the logs for various reasons (shell, banq, sc, etc). That perhaps there is common ground to be found. Because the reason for keeping logs is for admins and mods to use them to deal with people who are being annoying/disruptive/etc in chat and forums. And this reason is the reason I pretty much believe in and is the PRIME reason I am against giving everyone access to the logs as they are.

I still don't understand this, it's like you keep giving us the same reasons, or at least similar ones and not actually explaining them in any kind of logical way. "Why can't we go to disney land mummy?" --- "Because, that's why!" Like I said before, I never was one to take a reason without an explanation.

Clearly you want to be able to moderate the board, and I can understand that, (even if I never see it) But Keeping the logs as a privilege of the mod/ admin part of the community would not stop you from doing that. You would still have access to the logs and still be able to deal with would be trouble makers if you wish. I do not see how everyone having access to the logs would prevent you from doing this. Could you possibly explain the logical reasons behind this argument? As to me it's akin to a police constable saying a member of the public watching them is preventing them from arresting someone.

BUT.
How much of the logs do you guys actually use? A day's worth? Two day's worth if you aren't around for a day?
Well. I have no idea at the moment of typing this as turtle is not around to ask and seraph is asleep cause its like 1am for him give or take. If it is possible though to have the current day or two of logs stored in one location and then after 24/48 hours automatically moved to another. Would this be alright with those that seem to be mainly speaking up for keeping public logs?

Well personally I did have the link that allowed me to see logs going back a few days on the old system, though I can't recall ever using it. I only ever used the link that allowed us to look at the last 24 hours activities, and this is all I would be interested in having. Which I believe, after talking to turtle about this previously is completely do able under the current system. And yes this would be a perfectly acceptable middle ground for me, so thank you for offering this as a solution.

So thank you Jen

I would like opinions from not just banq about the idea.

The trouble with this is that I know that many people who want the logs back are too scared to stand up to you. Whereas I am not, and will point out when I see something being done wrong. One user said "I want the logs back, but I don't want to cause her (Jen) any distress by disagreeing with her"
So as you can see it's not a matter of me being the only one who cares about this. I'm just the one with the gumption to actually say something about it.

The only public log I'd be comfortable with is one you must be in chat in order to utilize. If the link is available outside of chat, then I'm opposed. There's no need for it and it opens the users of chat up to harassment. If there were a button inside the chat room that opened the log in a window or pop up, then I'm fine with that because the user has to be in chat in order to access it. If they close the chat, the log closes too.

Well how gracious of you to finally comment on this thread JP, seeing as you were the one who moved it over a week ago, without giving a reason, or even making it clear that it was actually moved and not a new thread.
Anyway I digress, if you read up the posts a little you will see contributions to the discussion from myself and Oda which explains this argument to you. But I will be nice and post some quotes from those parts of the discussion for you.

Not having the logs wouldn't really stop this kind of behaviour though. People don't need the logs to cite previous conversations in the chat or to cause arguments about them.

The only true to stop this is by proper moderation.

Well if that is the reason, then i can´t understand it. That is no solution for the problem and i think it even helps. When no logs are available it would help to lie. I could easily say that this person said this and hat, but is it true? No one knows? And i doubt the Admins and Mods have enough time to search in the logs for every little battle in chat.

Furthermore that sounds abit strange. That is like i would say i forbid all newspapers, because i am for world peace and in this newspapers stand things from bad people who did bad things.

That would bring nothing to world peace, like avoiding the chat log won´t bring peace in the chat. That are two things.

Allowing us access to the logs is not going to cause any great problems, but withholding them is going to deprive many users of something they enjoy.

So I ask you Jen and your team to deal with the users who abuse the chat and harass people, and don't punish us all for their wrong doing.

So as you can see JP, this issue has been dicussed. I don't think it would be an acceptable solution for me that you have to go into the chat to get the logs, as this is not always possible, for reasons I have explained above. And I would really like you to explain further why you think people having access to the logs would lead to harassment of users. The Insect who plagued chat for months certainly didn't need to use the logs to bully and harass people, she just needed chronic mod inactivity for this. There is nothing in the logs but fact, and I don't see how the truth can be used to cause problems. Surely clouding the truth with limited access to the logs would lead to more harassment as people could cite conversations that never even happened with no one but the mods able to discount spurious rumours and scurrilous lies? For example I could say that person X told me they were really 15 yesterday, and that could lead to many users shunning them and calling for them to leave. With access to logs this person could easily defend themselves and say "Actually I told Banq I was 51, he must need new glasses again lol"

I don't see and never will without a full and honest explanation, why withholding the truth can help you in anyway cut out harassment on the chat.

Anyway thank you both for finally responding, even if you did need a little nudge from me in the chat to do so. And thank you Jen for offering a middle ground which I find perfectly acceptable, and I'm pretty sure others will. *smiles* but give them time to post....what would you say is an acceptable time for people to respond to you Jen?

Banquo

[Banquo]

You've said nothing that would convince me chat logs need to be available outside of the chat. Just because you don't feel the sort of harassment that can, and has, occurred due to publicly available (outside of the chat) logs is an issue is not a valid reason. Not always able to log into the chat? But you're capable of accessing the logs? I don't buy it. Especially not now that the chat is XMPP based rather than Flash based.

I would also like to request that you stop bullying and insulting the community, including team members. Throwing insults, demands, and conspiracies around is not conducive to a constructive conversation and I don't blame Jen for not responding until now.

Bullying? I think you are confusing criticism with insult. Yes I will admit it has been pretty tough criticism, but I can honestly say I stand by it. I think the problem is that you see a response you don't like and a concept you can't argue against and you call it bullying. How about you answer the questions posed at you before you point the finger and accuse others of bullying? Your post is just an obfuscation of the debate, you can't argue using reason so you point fingers and ignore the matter at hand. I have done nothing that is beyond the rules of the website, neither have I done anything other than try and get a straight response from the admin team. If you find my tone insulting I am sorry, but at the end of the day I will call a spade a spade. And if I see something I don't believe is correct I will point it out. You may not "buy" my reasoning for not actually being logged into chat fair enough, but I have explained this in detail above, and answered any queries you people have about my point of view. You on the other hand have yet to explain your reasons in any kind of detail JP, you simply repeat the reason. But then I don't think you will explain simply because your argument doesn't stand up to examination, and that is clearly what you dislike here.

Banquo

[Banquo]

Bullying? You see a response you don't like and a concept you can't argue against and you call it bullying.

Not bullying.

You have yet to explain your reasons in any kind of detail JP, but then I don't think you will because your argument doesn't stand up to examination, and that is clearly what you dislike here.

Bullying.

I know the difference. I never said you broke any site rules. I never gave you a "warning". I made a request because, yes, I personally do not like your tone.

You have still yet to offer a valid reason for chat logs being available outside of chat other than "I want them". I've explained my reasoning more than once now and you dislike my answer so you don't acknowledge it. Your "explanation" of why logs should be available outside of chat is that keeping them inside of chat will not prevent harassment. That's comparing apples and oranges as it does not explain why they need to be available outside of chat.

It is a more than fair compromise to have them available to users inside of chat as it *will* prevent one type of harassment that has occurred in the past and is easily preventable and yet it still allows for all users to "check up on a hot scene that happened earlier".

Nonsense JP. I made a post that referenced the fact that you have ignored several users reasoning on this, you are taking it far too personally. I have indeed acknowledged your answer, I have even made reference to your reasoning in posts. Your just failing to see that because at the same time as referencing it I have discounted it as illogical. I'm not bullying anyone, I have not sworn at you or called you names. I have certainly criticised you, and as long as you ignore the points being made I will continue to do so. There is no rule against that. That is not bullying. And really your argument about the chat logs being used as a tool for harassment is just pure drivel, how many times has this happened? Did a mod step in? Surely it is the jobs of the mods to police the harassers, not to withhold information from the many to punish the few?

[Oda]

Just because you don't feel the sort of harassment that can, and has, occurred due to publicly available (outside of the chat) logs is an issue is not a valid reason.

Example please.

I hear all the ime from the team, that the chat logs are the reason for harassment. So if that is true i want an example for that. I saw alot of people in he chat and outside of the chat who did that, but never BECAUSE of the chat logs and i am tired of pointing it out, that this isn´t a solution. Of course the chat logs CAN be used like that, but because of it? Are you kidding me? If someone wants to attack/bully/whatever somebody, this person will do it. With Chat logs or without it. The chat logs doesn´t create this problem and that is a fact you can´t deny if you are honest.

Another point is the harsh tone of banq, isn´t it? Well, i have to say i talked with him yesterday about his post and i wasn´t a fan of it. The problem is... and that is sad... today i see it a little bit different, because that brought the team to answer... finally!

I don´t want to attack anyone, but to be ignored for over one week isn´t really nice. There is a discussion thread with a discussion going on and the complete team doesn´t reply on it. Sure... we all have other things to do and so it can happen, that somebody hasn´t the time for 1,2 or 3 days. Sometimes even longer, but the complete team? If Jen was so busy, some other teammember should have replaced her. Instead everyone ignores it. Despite Jen already told banq, that she didn´t reply on purpose and not because of time problems.

Let me point out, that I have no personal probloems with anyone out of the team, but i feel like i have to point that out. As a teammember you have some sort of responibility and that is to reply to threads like this. If you have some legit reasons, why to deny the normal user to the chat logs... no problem! But the given reason wasn´t really a reason. I mean come on... harassment because of the chat logs... i don´t buy it. Behaviour like that won´t disappear magically just because the chat logs aren´t availabe.

That was what we brought into this discussion, but instead of defending your point and bring up new arguments, that might have convienced us... everybody ignored this thread... even after several new posts from us. We gave us a chance to reply more often than once. Yesterday banq got angry and showed it here openly, but the fact is... you brought him to that point and it seems that tone is necessary to make a discussion with the team... sad but it looks like that. If that isn´t the truth, it is in your hand to change that public picture you made.

But lets finish with that... lets talk about the solution from Jen and i just can say the same like Banq. I like it and i would be perfectly fine with it. Just still sad it needed a running wild banq to get to this point...

peace Oda

Edit

Just so you don't think I'm being a coward and ignoring the topic, I am not replying to your latest post because I see nothing that requires a response. We've already discussed everything you just reiterated.

Of course not... i mean it isn´t like you bring up new points. So why he has to bring up new arguments? It´s your turn :)

[Banquo]

Just so you don't think I'm being a coward and ignoring the topic, I am not replying to your latest post because I see nothing that requires a response. We've already discussed everything you just reiterated.

Umm no you didn't. *sighs* You may have repeated your reason, but you didn't explain it, and neither did you counter the arguments put forward against it, there is a HUGE difference between the two. *facepalm*
The reason you aren't replying is because you can't. If you could you would be able to explain why restraining information like this stops harassment. You would be able to explain why the mods don't simply deal with harassment to nip it in the bud, and you would be able to answer the questions I have asked.

[les]

        


        


        

[seraph0x]

A couple years ago a very active domme here on this site were running a little game on the forums, where the "price" for winning was a one on one teasing sessions with her. I happened to be the lucky winner. The chat here on milo would been the perfect tool for that, apart from the glaring shortcoming of not being able to log the convo.

The new chat allows you to connect with any XMPP client, most of which have a logging feature. So for this case you'd just need one person to install Pidgin (Windows, Mac, Linux), Adium (Mac) or some such client, enable logging and hang out in the chat for the duration of the event.

Going back to the main subject: We can't ultimately stop people from recording logs or even posting them. If somebody records a private conversation and posts it on their blog, there is little we can do to stop that.

That said, whether we keep complete and public logs officially is very much under our control and I see some good reasons not to do it. Our chat room is recreational, it's meant for fun and for hanging out. If it was for example the official chatroom for the Firefox browser, I'd say recording chatlogs is useful to have a record of frequently asked questions, maybe a record of official decisions and statements made etc.

But our chat really isn't like that, it's just people hanging out for fun, anything official happens on the forums. That means the chat conversions are mostly transient in nature, spur of the moment type things. Given the adult theme there is an additional dimension to it as well as most of us want to keep our sex lives private. Imagine somebody catches you browsing Milovana, sees your username at the top right and based on that alone can proceed to read your chat sessions past and present.

Simply sit and enjoy watching without taking part. Is this really such a crime?

This is a reasonable point. I do believe that if somebody is just reading the chat and enjoying the energy while being maybe too shy to take part, there is nothing wrong with that. However, we need to balance that against the need to have an intimate atmosphere in the chat. I think asking folks to sign up and join the chat if they want to watch is a reasonable compromise for the general purpose rooms.

We could maybe do a separate room "Town Square" that is publicly logged for public humiliation / exhibitionism type scenes. It would be good for holding a technical Q&A session on Eos as well, for example.

Yes because you can hand on heart say that this has happened in the past with users who have casued trouble can you? prompt direct action from the mods? or feeble hand wringing and excuses of "seraph doesn't like it when we ban people"

If we didn't have that policy, you might have been banned by an annoyed mod by this point. It's easy to confuse a critic for a troll who wants the debate for the sake of causing trouble. Comments like "Well how gracious of you to finally comment on this thread JP" are totally uncalled for. The chat log policy has only recently been instated and debated at length, so I think it speaks for our mods that they are willing to reopen the issue at all.

I do agree with you that if mods don't react to a troll, users have to deal with the problem themselves. This is the better way in most cases anyway, because it's much more democratic and differentiated. If I'm amused by a fairly creative troll I can enjoy his exploits, whereas someone who is bothered by it can ignore them. (I'm not sure how good the ignore feature is for the new chat - if it's not persistent etc. we'll definitely work on that though.)

What I disagree with is that you need public logs to do that type of self-moderation. If somebody bothers you in the chat, ignore them in the chat. Anything that is said in the chat while you're not there doesn't concern you any more than what people say in private messages precisely because there are no public logs.

A permanent record just increases the amount of damage an emotional comment or offhand attack does. If it's just in the chat it's water under the bridge and will be forgotten soon enough. If it's enshrined in a permanent log it may start a whole debate about having the insult deleted and the person who made the comment punished. And that's bad because I believe that everybody deserves to be able to say something in the heat of the moment and not be armchair-criticized and picked apart beyond reason.

Maybe we need to distinguish between a public, temporary log and a public, permanent log. Most of my criticisms are definitely against permanent logs. A log of the last 24 hours for example would be less of a privacy issue for example.

---

These are just my two cents. I don't spend a lot of time in the chat, so certainly Jen and others will be in a much better position to decide those issues. I'm just hoping to add some original ideas to the discussion.

[Oda]

Example please.

I will not name names but I will rehash one example that I remember best.

James, John and Jim were both active members of the chat and were friendly towards each other. Over time Jim and John got tired of the stories James told because they felt they were far fetched. Jim and John stopped participating in chat partly because of James and his stories. However, they kept monitoring the logs and whenever James told a story they thought was far fetched, they would log into chat and call him a liar and harass him. Jim and John were not active members of the chat anymore and only logged on in this fashion to harass a member that did use the chat regularly.

This sort of harassment is easily preventable by moving the logs inside the chat. Jim and John had no interest in sitting idle in chat. Yes, they could still sit in chat and harass James if they wished to, but the simple fact is that they weren't interested in that.

Oh i see it... the chat log created this right? So without the chat logs James, John and Jim would have been best friends... right? Nice story :)

[Banquo]

Example please.

I will not name names but I will rehash one example that I remember best.

James, John and Jim were both active members of the chat and were friendly towards each other. Over time Jim and John got tired of the stories James told because they felt they were far fetched. Jim and John stopped participating in chat partly because of James and his stories. However, they kept monitoring the logs and whenever James told a story they thought was far fetched, they would log into chat and call him a liar and harass him. Jim and John were not active members of the chat anymore and only logged on in this fashion to harass a member that did use the chat regularly.

This sort of harassment is easily preventable by moving the logs inside the chat. Jim and John had no interest in sitting idle in chat. Yes, they could still sit in chat and harass James if they wished to, but the simple fact is that they weren't interested in that.

This kind of harassment is also easily preventable by dealing Jim, and John rather than punishing us all for their crimes. I was there the day that these two people did this once, and I was the one who had to deal with them because dream and Jen were not there and Snare could do nothing because he was in the lounge not the catacombs. They were easily dealt with as it happens, by telling them to stop making accusations about people. If I were a mod I would likely have given them a warning, or more if they did not cease, which as I recall they did. But instead nothing, and as far as I know they would still be able to do this. It would not be beyond their abilities to log into chat under a different name and log all conversations for later use using a crawler program. You are not dealing with the problem by doing this. If they want to harass James they will still do it. Will you deal with them directly or try and put little obstacles in the way that affect us all not just Jim and John.

Like I have said before deal with the abusers and the abusers alone. Dont punish us all for there behaviour.

[Oda]

Oh i see it... the chat log created this right? So without the chat logs James, John and Jim would have been best friends... right? Nice story :)

The chat log did not create the dislike among the former friends. The chat log was the tool used to harass a former friend.

Exactly. i can use a mobile phone to throw it against somebody i don´t like. I can kill somebody with a car and i can use alcohol to make a fire bomb. You want to forbid all this things, because it CAN be used like this? Not to forget, that i already said this AND that i asked for a example, where harassment were created by the chat logs. Of course you can´t give me that, because it doesn´t exist, but that would be the only valid reason to forbid the chat logs, because of harassment.