Public Chat Log Discussion

[Banquo]

It genuinely irritates me that you expect people who do their work for this site entirely in their free time to maintain certain response times in debates.

A couple days is an entirely reasonable time to take for replying in a debate thread and there is no reason to harass Jen with ten bumps in the meantime.

Ten? Ten? I was merely stating that there was no reply. I didn't message Jenny, or PM her, I simply made a jokey post on the forum which as far as I can see she barely frequents. I have not attacked or harassed anyone. I have just asked for answers,
As for yet another attack on me for criticising those who do their work for free, I think that has been discussed to death recently.

I am jsut frustrated at the now out of context nature of this whole converstion.

I don't know who moved it, but it was definitely the correct decision. "Chat feature requests" was about creating a concise list of feature requests. Lengthy debates were off-topic and distracting. If you want to debate chat logs, fine, but start a new thread for it, so it doesn't clutter the feature request thread.

Remember that that thread was started because I said the other threads about chat feature requests were too cluttered. As developers, Turtle and I don't care about the debate etc., just let us know what the final decision is and we'll implement it.

@Banquo, if you feel context is lost, my recommendation would be edit your initial post and add links to whatever context you feel is missing. In case it makes you feel any better, I have a tendency to post stuff that is off-topic, so I've been on the receiving end of splits quite a few times.

(Fair warning: If you guys want to debate at length whether mods should split/merge topics, start a new thread for it, otherwise it might get split as this thread is technically about chat logs. )

I completely understand the reasons the thread was split off from the original. However. On every other forum I have every been involved in, (and trust me I have frequented some pretty good ones and some god awful ones) in every instance if a thread is split off, the moderator or admin who did it has the grace and decency to add a post at the start of the new thread both declaring its move and explaining why. Frankly this just smacks of lazy moderation, though that is a trait I have come to expect from your admin team.

I think you can understand the reason for our anger over this Seraphox, as once again, I have been made to look like a villain when all I have done is try to get some honest answers from your team. I understand that they all work for free, and to be honest I respect that. But honesty and openness do not cost a thing, and simply because a volunteer works for nothing does not mean they are above criticism.

[seraph0x]

Ten? Ten? I was merely stating that there was no reply. I didn't message Jenny, or PM her, I simply made a jokey post on the forum which as far as I can see she barely frequents. I have not attacked or harassed anyone. I have just asked for answers,
As for yet another attack on me for criticising those who do their work for free, I think that has been discussed to death recently.

Ok, maybe not ten. I just didn't like the tone of those posts, like the one with the David Bowie video or the one in this thread where because there was no response, "we can only assume that the reason for witholding this data is a spurious one." No, actually, you could also assume that Jen was busy and hasn't had time to reply yet.

I completely understand the reasons the thread was split off from the original. However. On every other forum I have every been involved in, (and trust me I have frequented some pretty good ones and some god awful ones) in every instance if a thread is split off, the moderator or admin who did it has the grace and decency to add a post at the start of the new thread both declaring its move and explaining why. Frankly this just smacks of lazy moderation, though that is a trait I have come to expect from your admin team.

I'm also on a lot of forums, and I haven't seen that practice. I'm also not sure whether you can add a post at the top in phpBB. The posts in the thread are ordered by date, and I don't think there is an option to back-date posts. What we could do is edit the first post when we split a thread, like "Edit by ...: This post was split from thread xyz for reason xy." Is that a solution we can agree on for future splits?

I think you can understand the reason for our anger over this Seraphox, as once again, I have been made to look like a villain when all I have done is try to get some honest answers from your team. I understand that they all work for free, and to be honest I respect that. But honesty and openness do not cost a thing, and simply because a volunteer works for nothing does not mean they are above criticism.

You don't look like a villain, neither before the split nor after. Neither in this thread nor in the original "what's the status on chat" thread. To me you look like a concerned citizen who's trying to help and who's maybe a bit overeager at times.

That said, if you did feel unjustly vilified, maybe you can relate a bit better to our point of view. I get up in the morning, I check the status of the converter script, I read up on PMs, I check up on our tax payment (where the state of California decided to charge us an extra 150$ because they "can't find our check"), I go check the forums and I read a few people going "The chat sucks, why don't they respond, they must not care, this is all a conspiracy to make me look bad, etcetc." - We're genuinely doing our best guys and we appreciate suggestions, including critical ones, but be patient and don't assume malice at every turn.

As they say: Don't ascribe to malice that which can be perfectly explained by incompetence.

[Banquo]

Ok, maybe not ten. I just didn't like the tone of those posts, like the one with the David Bowie video or the one in this thread where because there was no response, "we can only assume that the reason for witholding this data is a spurious one." No, actually, you could also assume that Jen was busy and hasn't had time to reply yet.

Yes maybe I have been a little impatient *smiles* but like you said I am pretty eager to have this community at it's best.

I'm also on a lot of forums, and I haven't seen that practice. I'm also not sure whether you can add a post at the top in phpBB. The posts in the thread are ordered by date, and I don't think there is an option to back-date posts. What we could do is edit the first post when we split a thread, like "Edit by ...: This post was split from thread xyz for reason xy." Is that a solution we can agree on for future splits?

Generally in the other forums I have been part of the mod starts a new thread and transfers the comments over to that one. Would be a simple solution and would barely take any time at all.

You don't look like a villain, neither before the split nor after. Neither in this thread nor in the original "what's the status on chat" thread. To me you look like a concerned citizen who's trying to help and who's maybe a bit overeager at times.

Yes I have been over eager, I just care a lot about this community. And honestly It did make me look a bit of an upstart: "oh god not another thread by Banquo moaning about the chat won't that guy ever shut up" lol. This has honestly caused some issues and a fair amount of hurt.

That said, if you did feel unjustly vilified, maybe you can relate a bit better to our point of view. I get up in the morning, I check the status of the converter script, I read up on PMs, I check up on our tax payment (where the state of California decided to charge us an extra 150$ because they "can't find our check"), I go check the forums and I read a few people going "The chat sucks, why don't they respond, they must not care, this is all a conspiracy to make me look bad, etcetc." - We're genuinely doing our best guys and we appreciate suggestions, including critical ones, but be patient and don't assume malice at every turn.

I understand that people's time is limited and that we all have lives away from Milo. But you can understand my annoyance that every suggestion and criticism has been met with cries of "its free pipe down."

Anyway, we are getting way off topic. The chat history should be made open to all members, I want to be able to go back and look at MY words the words that I have said. I own my words, and if they are being withheld from me I can in my opinion feel rightly aggrieved about that. To say that they are being withheld because a select few have misused them in the past is akin to a teacher keeping the whole class in after school because one person acted up in the playground one time. Lets trust people to use the logs responsibly and not treat the users like kids. If people misuse them in that chat simple. the mods can step in and remind them they are abusing their liberties. Sure it might mean the mods have to step in once or twice, but hey that's what they are there for surely? to Moderate.

Banquo


and PS how can anyone be offended by Bowie...He's Marvelous... look at him up there with his lovely red mullet (Banquo had that hairdo once ) and song where the lyrics "falls wanking to the floor" *chuckles* truly awesome.

[Oda]

I have a question about this.

In my opinion the chatlogs were always a very helpful tool. Especially for this communite, where dome dom/mes want to check what their subs did in the chat room. If a scene happened you missed, it was easy to look at it afterwards. So i think it is a very good tool, especially for milo.

So... that was my opinion... now my question.

I read alot about "misuse the chatlogs". Can somebody please explain that? How can you misuse that? I mean it was forbidden to post chatlogs without permission in the forum, so that can´t be the misuse. So how can you possibly misuse that tool?

[les]

The opinion was--
"what happens in chat stays in chat"

Recounting a chat conversation had been used in the past in a troll sort of way.
Not sure of the exact details of participants.

I feel if logs are available then this can be helpful when quotes are out of context.

I always assume anything said on the internet is visible to someone.

[Banquo]

The opinion was--
"what happens in chat stays in chat"

Recounting a chat conversation had been used in the past in a troll sort of way.

Not having the logs wouldn't really stop this kind of behaviour though. People don't need the logs to cite previous conversations in the chat or to cause arguments about them.

The only true to stop this is by proper moderation.

Banquo

[Oda]

Well if that is the reason, then i can´t understand it. That is no solution for the problem and i think it even helps. When no logs are available it would help to lie. I could easily say that this person said this and hat, but is it true? No one knows? And i doubt the Admins and Mods have enough time to search in the logs for every little battle in chat.

Furthermore that sounds abit strange. That is like i would say i forbid all newspapers, because i am for world peace and in this newspapers stand things from bad people who did bad things.

That would bring nothing to world peace, like avoiding the chat log won´t bring peace in the chat. That are two things.

[Mistress Jenifer]

The reason I do not reply to topics most of the time is it will be my raw reaction. Which is not fitlered by my mind + reason and highly likely to cause more anger. Then I forget about the topic and don't reply at all. And personally, this is suppose to be an enjoyable place for me. A place where I can tease subs...snuggle with mine....and talk about whatever (books, tv, games, etc). So I do not stir the pot on purpose.

[Oda]

No offense,

But I think it is a good idea to not answer posts, wehn you are mad or angry or whatever. That wouldn´t be right. So a wise decision to wait a bit for replys. Especially when they are important.

But when it is true, that you sometimes forget to reply at all, then it isn´t really a good thing. People like banq are waiting for it and so they think you are doing it on purpose. That you are just ignoring them and that doesn´t help a conversation at all. Some people will take that very personal and i think that is something nobody wants. Like you said yourself... that should be a enjoyabnle place and i think nobody sees it different about that :)

I totally understand that is a bit of your main focus to have fun with your subs, but the truth is, that you are the Chat admin and so you have to do official things too. Eeven if they´re not very pleasent.

Sill i hope that isn´t a long term problem and we can be peaceful again soon :)

[shell]

I would like to put in my two cents worth.....or with me, it always is more like fifty cents worth. *giggle*

First....just a little off topic....but then I will get back to it.

seraph0x you asked a question.....

I'm also on a lot of forums, and I haven't seen that practice. I'm also not sure whether you can add a post at the top in phpBB. The posts in the thread are ordered by date, and I don't think there is an option to back-date posts. What we could do is edit the first post when we split a thread, like "Edit by ...: This post was split from thread xyz for reason xy." Is that a solution we can agree on for future splits?

I would like to go on record as saying...I think this is a great idea!! That would let us know who to speak to, if we have questions as to why it was moved. Thank you so much!! *big smile*

***

As to the public chat log.....here are my reasons that I would like to see the chat log available.
I do believe that "Seriously" had a good point when he said this,

The problem, as I see it, is the admins mistakenly gave you access to something for a period of time that you shouldn't have had access to in the first place. As a result, you now think that you're having something taken away.

Some of us got use to having this tool and now with it gone, we feel like we have lost something very valuable.

I have used it in three different ways.

1. If I had a submissive doing a task for me, in the chat room, such as doing an edge every time some used a specific word, I could check on their progress through out the day, if I didn't have time to get involved in chat, but just wanted to look down through it.

2. I share everything I do, whether I am Mistress or submissive with Master, and that includes my chat room time. I do this from free choice, not because he requires it of me.
When the logs were available, I would note the times I was in the room and then quickly copy and paste the time I was there, to an email. It was quick, simple and perfect.

With the current status, yes, I can still get the log, but two things have to happen....one, I need to be able to not be bumped from the room. When that happens, it's a fifty/fifty chance I won't get all of the log. And two, I have to remember to snag it before leaving. And yes, that's on me and I will make it a habit, if another choice is not available.

3. Sometimes I can't go into chat, because of the outside world. But I could look at the log, refreshing every so often.....watching, if you will, as from a window. Getting to know people....oh, and one time, I got to see a collaring of someone, that I would have missed, if I hadn't had the logs to look at.

So, yeah, I miss them and really hope that they are returned. Will I get use to it, if they aren't sure.....but purty, purty please....would the Milo Gods pleeeeeeeassseeee consider putting them back up....*flutters eye lashes and gives my award winning smile* *giggle*

[Banquo]

The reason I do not reply to topics most of the time is it will be my raw reaction. Which is not fitlered by my mind + reason and highly likely to cause more anger. Then I forget about the topic and don't reply at all. And personally, this is suppose to be an enjoyable place for me. A place where I can tease subs...snuggle with mine....and talk about whatever (books, tv, games, etc). So I do not stir the pot on purpose.

I can perfectly understand you wanting to focus your time with the people you care about and on teasing subs in the chat. And I am sorry If at times I have seemed a little impatient for answers. But at the end of the day we are all here to have fun and enjoy interacting with others.
But at the same time like Oda has said you are the Administrator of the community chat room and therefore we are all looking for your input here. This is after all now the discussion thread about whether or not we should all have access to the logs.

I for one clearly disagree with your decision to withhold them, as do many other users, some who are too shy to speak up about it themselves. None of us can see how public chat logs can be "misused" simply saying people have used it in the past to harass other users doesn't add up, it's not the logs that were harassing the people it was the other user, and the mods should have dealt with them accordingly. If someone wants to cause trouble in the chat they really do not need access to the logs to do so.

Look at the issue we had earlier in the year, where I and many other users in chat wrote a letter bringing the trolling nature of another user to your attention. She didn't need the logs to make trouble. But she did manage to cause a hell of a lot of it. And still does from time to time as it happens.

Allowing us access to the logs is not going to cause any great problems, but withholding them is going to deprive many users of something they enjoy.

So I ask you Jen and your team to deal with the users who abuse the chat and harass people, and don't punish us all for their wrong doing.

[Banquo]

where the state of California decided to charge us an extra 150$ because they "can't find our check"

Sorry saw this and thought of the whole Cali tax issue



Damn you Arnie!!

[Banquo]

Just thought this thread deserved a little bump as we still haven't had a response from the chat admin to the questions Oda and I posed. I don't want this to be seen as harassing anyone as it really isn't intended that way. I would just really like to hear a response to our posts. And as Jenny said in her last post she often forgets about threads.

This thread was after all posted here as a discussion by one of the mods or admins....so lets discuss.

I thank you in anticipation.

Banquo

[Oda]

I hate to bump again, but i think i need to do it.

It has been a whole week since the last response from someone of the admin team and that is... not really a good thing.

I don´t know if that topic is to annoying for the office and gets simply ignored or if the office teasm just forgot about it. Either way it isn´t really a example for good work.

Jen said she forgets to post sometimes and Phox said he doesn´t check that forum really often, so it might be that, still that wouldn´t be an excuse for no reply. If you are that busy to give us an answer to this serious topic, than i might assume you haven´t enough active admins/mods around here.

the fact is, that the official statement from the office, about the chat log discussion, is pretty unsatisfying. the reason for that is simply... we don´t see that the chat logs are the reason for that for bad behaviour and i think we pointed that out very clearly. So i don´t think it is enough to just stick to that argument. If you want to keep that position you need to back it up some more, with some good arguments.

I don´t want to attack somebody, but that is just how i see it.

Peace Oda

[les]

Human nature being what it is.
People will always do what they think they can get away with.
Religion have the all seeing deity, that will deal retribution later.
Milovana need chat logs.

If we have no public logs then there is no way that chat disputes can be settled.
The genie was let out of the bottle and chat logs were released.
Therefore I see no reason for this not to be reinstated and continued.

Especially as with the plethora of programs now accessing chat and recording details.
A standard public log should be available to all.