Public Chat Log Discussion

[Banquo]

**EDIT**

This post and all but the last two posts on this thread (as of 22.00 hrs GMT 21.6.12) have been moved from another thread by an as yet unknown moderator and is now totally out of context. I DID NOT start this thread.

**EDIT**



Since the chat admin doesn't deem it necessary to reply to questions about the chat on the public forum, we can only assume that the reason for witholding this data is a spurious one.

It has become clear to me that people are not being fully open with their answers about things. Is this the way Milo is run?

[Mistress Jenifer]

Since the chat admin doesn't deem it necessary to reply to questions about the chat on the public forum, we can only assume that the reason for witholding this data is a spurious one.

It has become clear to me that people are not being fully open with their answers about things. Is this the way Milo is run?

Oh we were fully open when you asked.
The few ruined it for the many.

Logs were there, people used them for various reasons. And the harm that was caused by it and the potential harm was greater then the value of them. And personally. I will adhere to what I've said is my goal for the chat;
A safe an sane place to discuss and talk about your kinks and your interests without having to fear anyone saying your stupid/retarded/etc because you have a kink or interest that they don't understand.

And to maintain it as a safe place, chat logs are being turned into an admin only (possibly mod too, not sure how the panel will work for them if they get access) item. Because you guys don't have a true need for the logs, where as admins and mods do. A regular user cannot deal with people who are causing problems in chat and/or underaged. All you can do is screenshot the moment and send it to one of us, and to me the logs are a tool to deal with that and provide the mod/admin with 100% unbiased proof. Even a screenshot sent to us is biased as it only shows part, not all, of the conversation. The logs just log what is said.

[Banquo]

Since the chat admin doesn't deem it necessary to reply to questions about the chat on the public forum, we can only assume that the reason for witholding this data is a spurious one.

It has become clear to me that people are not being fully open with their answers about things. Is this the way Milo is run?

Oh we were fully open when you asked.
The few ruined it for the many.

Logs were there, people used them for various reasons. And the harm that was caused by it and the potential harm was greater then the value of them. And personally. I will adhere to what I've said is my goal for the chat;
A safe an sane place to discuss and talk about your kinks and your interests without having to fear anyone saying your stupid/retarded/etc because you have a kink or interest that they don't understand.

And to maintain it as a safe place, chat logs are being turned into an admin only (possibly mod too, not sure how the panel will work for them if they get access) item. Because you guys don't have a true need for the logs, where as admins and mods do. A regular user cannot deal with people who are causing problems in chat and/or underaged. All you can do is screenshot the moment and send it to one of us, and to me the logs are a tool to deal with that and provide the mod/admin with 100% unbiased proof. Even a screenshot sent to us is biased as it only shows part, not all, of the conversation. The logs just log what is said.

You were only open with it once JP responded in the public chat, before it was a behind closed doors conversation and you were going to "pm" your reasons. I doubt you would have replied here If I had not specifically made a point to ask you in chat, or indeed directly made reference to you in this thread. To me that smacks of a desire to hide the reasons and mislead the users.

It is perfectly valid for users to have access to the logs, its is nice to know what topics have been discussed before and what people have been saying etc. And although not in my case, many people used it to monitor their subs activities.

As for users taking actions into their own hands and calling out users, surely people should be adult enough to stick up for themselves, and a chat log would not cause harm to anyone who were not lying or being dishonest in the chat. As it is a public chat, surely anything said in there is up for public review. This does not effect the chat being a safe place to discuss kinks, I do not see how a public record of the chat could possibly jeopardise your goal.

The only harm I can see is that people may be called out for making false claims or being dishonest. Besides, withholding the logs wont prevent this. People can still call others out for their behaviour in chat, they just have to be there to do it.

It is not up to the users to moderate the chat, however if the mods actually did something about the trolls and the bullies then they wouldn't need to. However that is a discussion for another topic.

And "the few ruined it for the many"? Stop treating the users of the site like children, this is the kind of sloppy school master reasoning that used to be bandied about as reasons for locking the tennis courts at school.

I see no logical reason to withhold the logs, the reasons you have given do not stand up to rigorous examination, and further to that your total inflexibility on the issues leads me to believe you have personal reasons for keeping them an admin only feature.

People with nothing to hide have nothing to fear from the truth.

Banquo

[Seriously?]

I'm going to have to agree with Mistress Jenifer on this one. I've run chatrooms for many years now, and I have never even considered giving all users unlimited access to chat logs. There is no real reason that they need them or should have them other than curiosity, which is a pretty low-level reason to me.

Logs are a tool for administrators, not end-users.

Mistress Jenifer does raise a valid point about safety and privacy. When you're in chat, you have the ability to choose how you want to act based on who is in the room at that time. When you give everyone access to the logs, you have removed the user's right to choose who is involved in their discussions or actions.

The problem, as I see it, is the admins mistakenly gave you access to something for a period of time that you shouldn't have had access to in the first place. As a result, you now think that you're having something taken away. I've seen this happen many times on some of the sites I run. The admins make changes that a few old timers don't like. Then, a very small amount of them just complain about it. New users never know the difference and would never even think to ask for said "missing feature".

Though I respect your desires on the issue, Banquo, if this were my site, I would probably just begin to ignore you on this topic. Not out of spite, but simply because you can't please everyone. At the end of the day, the admins need to prioritize their battles. Putting in a buch of work to please 1 or 2 people is just a bad allocation of resources.

Nothing personal, I just think you could possibly look at this from a different angle.

[Banquo]

I'm going to have to agree with Mistress Jenifer on this one. I've run chatrooms for many years now, and I have never even considered giving all users unlimited access to chat logs. There is no real reason that they need them or should have them other than curiosity, which is a pretty low-level reason to me.

With all due respect seriously I wholeheartedly disagree. Jenifer seems to think that by removing a facility that we all enjoyed she will somehow stop people trolling the chat. Which sadly it wont. She cites the rhetoric "a few people have spoiled it for the majority" which is as I see it a lazy way to control a problem. If the chat mods actually stepped in when issues arose instead of sitting back. Issues would be dealt with end of story. However believing that those same people who caused those issues will just suddenly start to behave because they don't have access to logs is utterly devoid of logic.

I do not want access to the logs simply out of curiosity, I want it out of a desire to know that whatever I have said in chat is recorded so that I can go back and look at it. and perhaps look at situations I may do differently. Or in fact to reassure friends that they have not acted improperly.

Mistress Jenifer does raise a valid point about safety and privacy. When you're in chat, you have the ability to choose how you want to act based on who is in the room at that time. When you give everyone access to the logs, you have removed the user's right to choose who is involved in their discussions or actions.

The current status quo is basically a charter for people who want to hide things from others and to act in a dishonest way (mods and admins included) as you so saliently pointed out when you said this

When you're in chat, you have the ability to choose how you want to act based on who is in the room at that time. When you give everyone access to the logs, you have removed the user's right to choose who is involved in their discussions or actions.

If people want to choose who sees their discussion its quite simple. Use a PM or and IM service. and don't talk about it in a public chat room.

It has nothing to do with privacy, when you talk in a public room, you give up that right.

The problem, as I see it, is the admins mistakenly gave you access to something for a period of time that you shouldn't have had access to in the first place. As a result, you now think that you're having something taken away. I've seen this happen many times on some of the sites I run. The admins make changes that a few old timers don't like. Then, a very small amount of them just complain about it. New users never know the difference and would never even think to ask for said "missing feature".

I find this a rather patronising view point "oh you mere mortals don't need access to this kind of thing, be happy with your gruel"

I may be the only dissenting voice but I have been backed up in private by both mods and users for actually speaking up on these issues. Sometimes others do not have the voice to speak up and complain. As has been evidenced in the past, I tend to step in at that point.

Though I respect your desires on the issue, Banquo, if this were my site, I would probably just begin to ignore you on this topic. Not out of spite, but simply because you can't please everyone. At the end of the day, the admins need to prioritize their battles. Putting in a buch of work to please 1 or 2 people is just a bad allocation of resources.

Good job you aren't running any of the sites I enjoy then, because you sound very ignorant saying that. For an admin to ignore the users is for me unforgivable. The users and people who post in the community are the people who make the site what it is, without user contributions there would be no teases, no forums, no Milovana.

If there were a proper solid reason for not allowing us to see the logs I would be fine with it. But given the sudden change in the chat situation here, and the apparent slow progress you can see why this has caused issues for several users (not just me.)

Clearly this is nothing personal against me seriously as I barely know you and I see you only joined the site a matter of days ago. So there couldn't possibly be a grudge of any kind.

All I ask for is Honesty. I like for my words to stand on their own, and I have no problem with there being a record for what I post in the chat or in the forums. But then I have nothing to hide.

Some people like to be able to hide their past. For whatever reason or the other

I will say what I said at the end of my last post

People with nothing to hide need not fear the truth

Banquo

[Seriously?]

All of your points are valid from your perspective, and I won't argue any of them.

However, I do think it's interesting you think you're being lied to. What do you suppose the real answer is? Do you really think there is a clandestine effort to make you unhappy with the changes? We've been given legitimate reasons as to why changes were made, regardless of if you like those reasons.

- You were told the previous chat solution was removed because it was unstable. This is a totally believable statement.
- Turtle is working to restore some of the features that you want returned. As i gather, he's a volunteer so he'll get it done when he does.
- A few of the features probably won't be returning, and you've been told that - logs and webcams, for instance.

I'm sure your enthusiasm is appreciated, it just seems to me that you've got some unreasonable expectations for the people involved in running a free service. Does it suck that you lost a feature you liked? Sure! But unless you can step up to help fix the issue, complaining and conspiracies are only going to have a negative impact on the staff trying to restore what functionality they can.

Lastly, I only mentioned the "nothing personal" line so it was clear that this is just a casual conversation and I wasn't trying to attack or flame you, in the event it was misread. Conversations like this are very interesting to me.

[Oda]

Banq just tells the truth. I see no reason for not allowing every User to use the Chat log and i know that some persons actually used it, as Banq said before, so i won´t repeat them.

A forum like that needs people like banq. The fact is, that a community like that can´t survive if everyone just shuts his mouth and accepts the things. That is how humanity improved! They changed things and for that you need persons who actually speak their mind.

Of course... you can nod your head to everything if you want to, but if there are problem it won´t help.

Banq just says some critics, but is always respecting the work of the volunteers, so i don´t see why everyone is repeating it time and time again. If i teach a boy from the first class math for free and tell him 1 + 1 = 3, the parents have every right to speak with me about it. That helps! And just because he can´t help fixing things, he still can speak his mind. Turtle even said that he appreciated banq opening the thread about the chat.

So i say banq should continue.

[Banquo]

All of your points are valid from your perspective, and I won't argue any of them.

However, I do think it's interesting you think you're being lied to. What do you suppose the real answer is? Do you really think there is a clandestine effort to make you unhappy with the changes? We've been given legitimate reasons as to why changes were made, regardless of if you like those reasons.

- You were told the previous chat solution was removed because it was unstable. This is a totally believable statement.
- Turtle is working to restore some of the features that you want returned. As i gather, he's a volunteer so he'll get it done when he does.
- A few of the features probably won't be returning, and you've been told that - logs and webcams, for instance.

I'm sure your enthusiasm is appreciated, it just seems to me that you've got some unreasonable expectations for the people involved in running a free service. Does it suck that you lost a feature you liked? Sure! But unless you can step up to help fix the issue, complaining and conspiracies are only going to have a negative impact on the staff trying to restore what functionality they can.

Lastly, I only mentioned the "nothing personal" line so it was clear that this is just a casual conversation and I wasn't trying to attack or flame you, in the event it was misread. Conversations like this are very interesting to me.

*sigh*

volunteer work *blah blah* free service *blah blah* why dont you do something to help? *blah blah*

All things that have been discussed in this and other threads, and I might add replied to.

tell me my dear fellow, have you read any of my other posts on this subject? As Oda so kindly pointed out, I have made my feelings on the work that goes into the site quite clear. I fully appreciate all the hard work.
However credit where credits due, and criticism too.

As for thinking that I have some kind of cultist conspiracy theory about the hierarchy of the site, I'm afraid you are reading things between the lines, yet translating them with all the grace of a baby giraffe. That's a fez on my head, not a tin foil helmet. I see no conspiracy theory. I don't believe I'm being lied to on this issue. I just don't think Jenifers reasons are motivated by entirely professional theories.

If you were a long standing member you may have understood some of the things I hinted at in my previous posts, alas it is something that will escape you.

I have no unreasonable expectations, I simply expect honest and open answers to problems I have with the chat. And that the reasons given are valid.

And let me be clear, I do not mourn the flashchat, it was horrendously unstable, I do however mourn the features we have lost. Though I am sure that turtle will do his utmost to reinstate the ones he is allowed to by our chat Misteress.

I have no problem with you adding to this discussion, though I would ask in future you get your facts straight before criticising me.

Banq just tells the truth. I see no reason for not allowing every User to use the Chat log and i know that some persons actually used it, as Banq said before, so i won´t repeat them.

A forum like that needs people like banq. The fact is, that a community like that can´t survive if everyone just shuts his mouth and accepts the things. That is how humanity improved! They changed things and for that you need persons who actually speak their mind.

Of course... you can nod your head to everything if you want to, but if there are problem it won´t help.

Banq just says some critics, but is always respecting the work of the volunteers, so i don´t see why everyone is repeating it time and time again. If i teach a boy from the first class math for free and tell him 1 + 1 = 3, the parents have every right to speak with me about it. That helps! And just because he can´t help fixing things, he still can speak his mind. Turtle even said that he appreciated banq opening the thread about the chat.

So i say banq should continue.

Thank you Oda *smiles*

At least someone has read my posts correctly.

Banquo

[Seriously?]

I would like to start by saying... I don't know where you think I was being critical of you, personally, I assure you that wasn't my intent. So for that point, you have my apologies if that is how I was perceived.

I've read your posts, and I do feel that I have read them correctly. I understand that you're passionate about the topic and I don't begrudge that. I am mostly interested in the discussion from the "why" angle.

I understand fully that a feature you felt is important is supposedly not going to return. What I don't understand is why you feel that anyone owes you an explanation beyond the one you've already been given. You're the one who has made it clear that there is a perceived conspiracy. You said:

"your total inflexibility on the issues leads me to believe you have personal reasons for keeping them an admin only feature. "

That is clearly a statement of a conspiracy. Yeah, "conspiracy" might be a little strong of a word (I'm not talking about The Illuminati here ) You are certainly correct, that I am a newly registered member. I am willing to admit that you may have some inside knowledge that I do not. If you truly know something that you can't disclose, then you are in the right. But from my perspective, I have no reason to believe we've been lied to.

Lastly, I'm curious what would be an acceptable answer to you? Hypothetically, what if the answer was "we're not going to have public logs because the current chat program would require too much coding for us to implement such a feature"? Would that be an acceptable answer? I ask because it is very likely that the current chat software does not have this feature out-of-the-box (I've seen little chat software that does have public logs) and admin decided it wasn't worth the effort on top of the other points that were already made.

I would never say that you can't be critical of something that is free or paid. However, having been in the position of the admins many times over the years, I would ask that you consider that your criticism may be discouraging to those volunteering their time. I know it might be hard to see that from your side, but I've been there and I know how it can feel. Your posts are level-headed and well stated, and I respect that. But trust me, it's hard to be on the other side of the fence sometimes. Just a thought.

[Banquo]

I would like to start by saying... I don't know where you think I was being critical of you, personally, I assure you that wasn't my intent. So for that point, you have my apologies if that is how I was perceived.

I've read your posts, and I do feel that I have read them correctly. I understand that you're passionate about the topic and I don't begrudge that. I am mostly interested in the discussion from the "why" angle.

I understand fully that a feature you felt is important is supposedly not going to return. What I don't understand is why you feel that anyone owes you an explanation beyond the one you've already been given. You're the one who has made it clear that there is a perceived conspiracy. You said:

"your total inflexibility on the issues leads me to believe you have personal reasons for keeping them an admin only feature. "

That is clearly a statement of a conspiracy. Yeah, "conspiracy" might be a little strong of a word (I'm not talking about The Illuminati here ) You are certainly correct, that I am a newly registered member. I am willing to admit that you may have some inside knowledge that I do not. If you truly know something that you can't disclose, then you are in the right. But from my perspective, I have no reason to believe we've been lied to.

Lastly, I'm curious what would be an acceptable answer to you? Hypothetically, what if the answer was "we're not going to have public logs because the current chat program would require too much coding for us to implement such a feature"? Would that be an acceptable answer? I ask because it is very likely that the current chat software does not have this feature out-of-the-box (I've seen little chat software that does have public logs) and admin decided it wasn't worth the effort on top of the other points that were already made.

I would never say that you can't be critical of something that is free or paid. However, having been in the position of the admins many times over the years, I would ask that you consider that your criticism may be discouraging to those volunteering their time. I know it might be hard to see that from your side, but I've been there and I know how it can feel. Your posts are level-headed and well stated, and I respect that. But trust me, it's hard to be on the other side of the fence sometimes. Just a thought.

Yes that would be an acceptable reason (but I know for a fact that this is not the case), yes there is background info you are unaware of, yes I have knowledge I cant disclose, and yes I understand the nature of volunteering, I manage a team of volunteers myself as a matter of fact, but that is by the by, and this is merely a distraction from the real issue of the logs being withheld for completely spurious reasons.

You may have guessed that I'm not the kind of person who will nod and say ok when told nonsense.

Banquo


We have discussed this in chat. though unfortunately there is no log of our discussion.

[Oda]

We have discussed this in chat. though unfortunately there is no log of our discussion.

Oh really? :D

[Banquo]

*checks in on the thread* oh look....no reply to my points from jenny. Still no real surprise there.

[shell]

*sighs*

[DellaRoss]

I Second That Shell.

though i am not sure our reasons are the same.

I am jsut frustrated at the now out of context nature of this whole converstion.

to Whoever moved this :


Della the Blackbird

[seraph0x]

*checks in on the thread* oh look....no reply to my points from jenny. Still no real surprise there.

It genuinely irritates me that you expect people who do their work for this site entirely in their free time to maintain certain response times in debates.

A couple days is an entirely reasonable time to take for replying in a debate thread and there is no reason to harass Jen with ten bumps in the meantime.

I am jsut frustrated at the now out of context nature of this whole converstion.

I don't know who moved it, but it was definitely the correct decision. "Chat feature requests" was about creating a concise list of feature requests. Lengthy debates were off-topic and distracting. If you want to debate chat logs, fine, but start a new thread for it, so it doesn't clutter the feature request thread.

Remember that that thread was started because I said the other threads about chat feature requests were too cluttered. As developers, Turtle and I don't care about the debate etc., just let us know what the final decision is and we'll implement it.

@Banquo, if you feel context is lost, my recommendation would be edit your initial post and add links to whatever context you feel is missing. In case it makes you feel any better, I have a tendency to post stuff that is off-topic, so I've been on the receiving end of splits quite a few times.

(Fair warning: If you guys want to debate at length whether mods should split/merge topics, start a new thread for it, otherwise it might get split as this thread is technically about chat logs. )