Chat Room Whispers and PM's

[shell]

Hello *Smile*

I am apprehensive about writing this thread. I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not trying to start some form of argument. Nor am I pointing fingers at anyone, to this, I give you my word.

I'm not really sure why people share things that they do, with me, but they do. And there has been something that has been shared enough that I think a discussion should be approached concerning it.

The topic is the attack an quick removal of people from the chat rooms, that whisper or PM without asking to do so.

I am aware, as are those that have talked to me, that there is a "Milovana Chat: Code of Conduct" at
http://www.milovana.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7867
A well written one, thank you Mistress Jenifer *Soft smile*

There are some people that join Milo and are excited about a new web site. They begin to move around the site. They see the choices above and click on "Chat".
They are taken to the Chat "enter a room" page.
Nowhere on that page is there a link to the Code of Conduct.
And yes, the link pops up periodically while in the room, however I'm sure that not to many people are going to click on a link to the Code, especially when they are new and trying to figure out the navigation of the room.

At other chat sites, when you click on a link to a chat room, it takes you to a page that explains the rules and some go as far as to give instructions for the room. For instance, for Milo, one could be on how to speak directly to someone, or how to personalize their "status" before even entering the room.

I thought there might have been a link to the Code posted at the top, as you enter each room. But I have just verified and there is not. However, if there was, it would be scrolled up very quickly, getting lost to anyone that doesn't know how to pause the scrolling.

So assumptions are made that new people have read the Code, when in fact they probably don't even realize one exists.

***

As these new people enter, some of them are coming from chat rooms where PMing, or whispering is not frowned upon. They click a name, say something to that person, privately, and within a minute or less they not only get spoken harshly to, but find themselves outside of the chat room, unable to get back in, for a few minutes, wondering what happened.

Then you have that infernal tick that is automatic that causes people to whisper. Why oh why can't the html code be written so that you have to tick the whisper box in order to whisper. By default, the room is set up for us to make mistakes. I make that mistake all the time. Because of my connection speed, I am usually able to apologize very quickly.

***

Now comes an area that some of us are finding ourselves faced with.
We get a PM or whisper from someone. We have three choices.
1. Tell the person privately not to do this again. This option forces those of us that do not wish to whisper or PM, to do exactly that.
2. Ignore the private contact, which in my opinion isn't polite.
3. Say something publicly to the person. But this is the most problematic solution. If you say something publicly, then the person is spoken harshly to, by a few other members, and if there is a mod in the room, a warning is issued. Although, if the person, doing like they have done in other chat rooms, sends the same greeting, privately to several people, and those individuals say something in public, then that seems to act as a "three strikes - you are out" scenario.

So because of what happens with "number 3" some of us are doing what is not comfortable to us, just to keep a possible newcomer from being talked to harshly or removed suddenly.

***

I do realize that there are those out there that have read the Code, have been warned repeatedly that PM's and whispers are not allowed, without permission. Those of us that are regulars, know them by name. For me, I block them, as soon as I see them enter. That way, I am not bothered by their rude behavior.

***

I propose this.
If someone PM's or whispers you, that we have the freedom to speak publicly to the person, asking them not to speak privately to us, or anyone else, without permission.
That in our asking, no one else need say anything to that person, unless they were sent a private note as well.

If the person does not cease, and the member is not wishing to deal with it any further, then they look to one of the mods in the room for assistance.
If no mod is present, a quick public note can be issued saying that you are blocking that person, and do so.

***

Again, this is not finger pointing. This is me sticking my neck out, a bit nervous to do so, to express a problem that has been brought to me, more then three times.

Thanks for listening and for any input you would like to add. *Smile*

Shell

[Snare]

Shell I agree with you. As the chat moderator of The Catacombs I have only muted 1 person and kicked 1 person because I understand how a newcomer feels when entering a chat room. If a pm comes uninvited to a member I go through my own system of checks before I even issue a warning. As far as the influx of new members that is awesome I hope to meet lots of new and interesting people in the chat rooms.

Snare

P.S. We are severely lacking in dominants in the chat rooms so I invite any and all to come in and just check us out. I should be there.

[Alliteration]

Just gonna make a real quick post here to say I agree with everyone above.

[les]

I have a macro that says

"Do Not PM or Whisper ME
without Asking
In Public First"

I understand the problems about Whispers and PM's more than most as I am often mistaken as a Female.

But this subject still has a way to run but I have difficulty in finding fault with shell's proposals.
So I will nod sagely in agreement.

[Streetsweeper]

That seems a reasonable approach Shell :)

[Human]

I actually disagree quite strongly with the PM/whisper policy:

You are asked to refrain from unsolicited private messages to other members, unless explicitly requested.

I often do not want it to be publically known that I am conversing privately or want to converse privately with a person. That itself is priveleged information. If I PM/whisper someone, and they do not want to PM, I'd rather thay ignore me, than reveal to everyone that I have sent them a PM.

The problem is even more severe in chat, because the context of when a user PMs is visible to everyone, and hence this reveals more about the user.
So, if I dont want to reveal who I PM, an unsolicited PM is the only option.

I propose the following rule:
You can send one unsolicited PM to a person, if the person doesnt respond, it means he/she does not want PMs from you; and thus you must refrain from sending further PMs to the person.

[les]

@Human

You make a good point and I think the fundamental problem is that many think a PM or Whisper gives exclusive contact.
Much like a phone call/text/sms/email.
I have had someone email me then text/sms to check I got the email then ring to check I had received both
all within 30 seconds.

A request is to ensure the chat is wanted and the spare time/concentration is available.
A group chat takes a lot of concentration when there are multiples in dialogue.

Many are just plain demanding/rude.
Most civil people will/can be excused.

I also think, @Human, in your case you would be rare in Starting a PM with an unknown.

[Human]

I also think, @Human, in your case you would be rare in Starting a PM with an unknown.

Maybe you just have that impression because I dont ask people in public if I can PM, I just do

But, the chat policy does not distinguish between knowns and unknowns. Say I wanted to send you, les, a PM. Chat policy says I have to get (in effect) public permission from you first.

[les]

We are only saying in the chat room

PM is a misnomer it is really a Private Chat.

A Private Message is sent via your control panel in the forums

[Human]

We are only saying in the chat room

PM is a misnomer it is really a Private Chat.

A Private Message is sent via your control panel in the forums

Yeah, I meant in chat.Interpret my "PM" in posts above as "Private Chats"

[Alliteration]

Ok, time to respond in more detail...

Nowhere on that page is there a link to the Code of Conduct.

As these new people enter, some of them are coming from chat rooms where PMing, or whispering is not frowned upon.

Perhaps, instead of the "chat" link taking us right to the chat, it could first take us to an HTML page with the rules, and then a link to the chat. It wouldn't have to even be the full CoC - just a reminder: "Please treat everyone with respect, and do not PM without permission". While ideally, it's the responsibility of the user to look for the rules before entering the chat; realistically, we can't expect that everyone will actually do this.

Then you have that infernal tick that is automatic that causes people to whisper. Why oh why can't the html code be written so that you have to tick the whisper box in order to whisper. By default, the room is set up for us to make mistakes. I make that mistake all the time. Because of my connection speed, I am usually able to apologize very quickly.

I actually think it might be a good idea to just remove the whisper box, and just have PC's and directed public messages. But I'm not sure if this is even possible - it might be built into the chat software.

I propose this.
If someone PM's or whispers you, that we have the freedom to speak publicly to the person, asking them not to speak privately to us, or anyone else, without permission.
That in our asking, no one else need say anything to that person, unless they were sent a private note as well.

If the person does not cease, and the member is not wishing to deal with it any further, then they look to one of the mods in the room for assistance.
If no mod is present, a quick public note can be issued saying that you are blocking that person, and do so.

We already do this (sort of - other people usually chime in when it happens, though). I think a page with the rules as I described above is probably the best solution, as it would remove any and all excuses for not being aware of the rules. Any unsolicited PMs then would be an intentional breaking of the rules.

---------------------------

I often do not want it to be publically known that I am conversing privately or want to converse privately with a person. That itself is priveleged information. If I PM/whisper someone, and they do not want to PM, I'd rather thay ignore me, than reveal to everyone that I have sent them a PM.

This is just the chat CoC - I'm pretty sure forum PMs don't apply here. And, as I've never once seen you in chat the entire time I've been here, I'm not sure why it's even an issue for you. I also don't understand why you want to keep who you're talking to such a secret.

But anyway, as Indy mentions later on, the rules are really more of a guideline - if you know someone well, no one is going to have a problem if you PM without asking. We all do this in chat all the time, with our close friends. The rule is really there so that people don't get PMs from strangers, which can be quite annoying, as 99% of the time they're requests from a new member to a female dominant asking for sexual attention.

Many are just plain demanding/rude.
Most civil people will/can be excused.

Exactly. Anyone who spends a lot of time on chat knows, as I mentioned above, that most of the violations are of the form "can u dominate me pls? ill do anything!!!"

A few weeks back, I had an unsolicited PM from someone (I won't say who) who had a serious RL problem, and needed to talk to someone. I excused the rule violation, as in this case it was justified.

--------------------

I still find it completely shocking, the arrogant attitude of self-entitlement that some users bring - feeling that because they're here, that the ladies who participate should drop everything they're doing to tease them.

Me too. I think many people who come here view the site purely as a "sex chat", and not a kink community. Maybe it would be a good idea to put something on the front page explaining the purpose of the site in more detail? All we have right now is: "This is the site for anybody who likes sex and loves to experiment and explore.".

They're not being used as guidelines, they're being used as weapons, to try to make the rest of the members capitulate to the will of the people who feel they have the right to make us do things - their way.

This, I only partially agree with. As I said above, many of us PM our close friends without permission all the time, and no one has a problem. While I do think that we shouldn't force new members to behave the way WE want, in all respects, all the time...I also think it's important to guard our female members from being flooded with annoying PMs from horny net geeks.

[dr.d]

Perhaps, instead of the "chat" link taking us right to the chat, it could first take us to an HTML page with the rules, and then a link to the chat. It wouldn't have to even be the full CoC - just a reminder: "Please treat everyone with respect, and do not PM without permission". While ideally, it's the responsibility of the user to look for the rules before entering the chat; realistically, we can't expect that everyone will actually do this.

in addition to this how about all new members getting emailed the code of conduct.
that way they will have some idea about what is allowed and what not and hopefully every one can enjoy the chat rooms

[Alliteration]

Perhaps, instead of the "chat" link taking us right to the chat, it could first take us to an HTML page with the rules, and then a link to the chat. It wouldn't have to even be the full CoC - just a reminder: "Please treat everyone with respect, and do not PM without permission". While ideally, it's the responsibility of the user to look for the rules before entering the chat; realistically, we can't expect that everyone will actually do this.

in addition to this how about all new members getting emailed the code of conduct.
that way they will have some idea about what is allowed and what not and hopefully every one can enjoy the chat rooms

Ooooh, good idea! Maybe it could be included in the registration e-mail.

Seraph0x, if you're reading this, any thoughts?

[seraph0x]

Seraph0x, if you're reading this, any thoughts?

My suggestion would be to create a minimal version of the rules and include it above the chat with a link to the CoC. Something like this:

Rules: You must be 18. Be respectful and abide by basic etiquette. Ask permission before opening a private chat. Don't post chat logs on the forums. Read the Code of Conduct.

The problem with nag screens is that we are conditioned to automatically click "Accept" on any legalese that pops up, without really reading it. (Shoutout to anyone who has seen the South Park episode on the iTunes Terms of Service. )

By having these minimal rules constantly in view, I think we have the best chance that people will sooner or later read them. And they lead naturally into the full Code of Conduct, so some people might even click through to that out of curiosity.

The text I used is just a suggestion, but it should be around that length for it to work. Jenifer would have the final say on the exact wording if we go with that solution.

As for including it in the registration mail: The reg mail has to stay generic - it's actually on my todo-list to make it less forum-specific. The account system is shared between Milovana and sister sites like Submissive Challenge and Urge. Right now not much is moving in that department, but I do want to keep the Milovana registration quick and lightweight, so eventually I don't want to have anything in there other than the minimum stuff we're legally required to include. That chat rules should be something that you're only confronted with if you're using that feature. Same goes for Urge, Submissive Challenge, Webteases, Webtease Editor, Nyx and Forum.

[les]

I would like to see if a person is warned or banned they are taken to a page that explains
What has happened and why
What to do next

Including "Return" or "Continue Chatting" and "Appeal" buttons.