The Logic of Free Speech

[1885]

This reminds me of something that occurred in early politics in late 1930's, early 1940's germany. Hitler, no doubt, supported his actions by claiming them to be in the best interests of the german people.

My expression of my thoughts, feelings, and opinions is my own. My actions - however - were always taken with the best interests of the members at hand.

So when seraph0x does it, he's like Hitler. When you do it, it's justified? More hypocrisy.

The problem I see with allowing the personal attacks to occur/continue, is that they in and of themselves are a form of oppression.

Then you have been one of the most oppressive people in the history of Milovana. Your post history is filled with the personal attacks you have made against Nezhul and others. Why did you delete your entire post history again, cause to me it looks like you burned all the evidence that could be used against you while you went on a hypocritical crusade against personal attacks.

Without your history, all that's left for anyone to do is presume. But I don't have to presume anything. I experienced your oppression first hand when you bullied me out of the site in 2008.

But speaking of post history, I never had the luxury of deleting mine. To this day, all the posts I made in the forums back then are still accessible. http://www.milovana.com/forum/memberlis ... file&u=275

But with the exception of kesbabev, where is your illustrious history of forum contributions? The only way to find those is to literally sift through the ashes.

Indigo as Ashe

Don't worry, this has happened before and I'm sure it'll happen again.

Here is a quote from me from the Team forum. It was August 2008 and there was a massive fight going on between Ashe and Christie. A lot of prominent members left. In fact very few people from before that are still here. Here's what I wrote:

The problem is a fight between Ashe and Christie. Both are using fake accounts, lies, trickery and manipulation in order to make the other look bad. As these things go, they have only managed to make themselves look bad and cause a lot of headaches for a lot of people, including myself.

I understand that such fights can get emotional. But the fact remains that all of us have to learn to control our emotions at least to the extent that we can live with each other. I hope both of you will gain that skill. If not, your lives may turn out to be lonely lives indeed.

In the end it go so bad that Ashe had to be purged. Nothing has changed, and to this day here you are doing it all over again, in your cycle of drama and hypocrisy. Everything you claim to stand against you are guilty of a thousand times over, and you don't even have to go back to 2008 to see it.

Your incessant histrionics have always brought you full circle to exactly where we are now. Allow yourself to be judged by your own actions, and everything you've said in this thread rings hollow.

[Alliteration]

Here's a good guideline:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... _attack.3F

[seraph0x]

Here's a good guideline:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... _attack.3F

lol: "Comparing editors to Nazis, dictators, or other infamous persons. (See also Godwin's law.)"

Ok, so someone please delete Indy's post.

Just kidding, please leave it. Which brings me to another subject - anybody who doesn't mind personal attacks should be able to opt out, so if I'd opt out for example, so people could still attack/criticize me without fear of repercussions.

I think the wiki guide looks good, so I think I'll use that, unless somebody objects?

[Human]

What standard should we use and how should we formulate it? Suggestions welcome.

Edit: 2000 posts, wooo.

Congrats on the 2000

My recommendations on what constitutes a deletable attack:
1. Generic insults (asshole, fucker etc).
Specific statements such as "you are stupid" "you are a moron" should NOT be considered deletable attacks.
Similarly, calling someone a racist, bigot, homophobe, dictator should be OK:
2. Demeaning terms used as salutations should be considered deletable --- so "you are stupid" is ok, but "Hey stupid, ...." is a deletable attack.

[choice]

Note to self: If I want to insult someone on the forum, make sure I also insult all the admins at the same time so they can't do anything about it.

[Human]

I think the wiki guide looks good, so I think I'll use that, unless somebody objects?

I cant figure out if the wiki contradicts my recommendations, can someone clarify? If I call someone a homophobe/bigot/racist, is that a personal attack according to the wiki guidelines?

[shell]

Edited to get seraph0x's name spelled right.

I want to give my thoughts on things....
I don't know big words, and I've never claimed to be very educated. But I have thoughts, opinions and a question or two to place on this thread.

***

My first question is to Nezhul.

1. Why do you come to Milovana?

**********
seraph0x -

This is what it says under the "about" link for why Milovana is here:

Milovana is a free online community, dedicated to the safe, sane and consensual exploration of sexual technique and technology in fun and interactive ways. A safe haven for all denominations of human sexuality. Milovana is the Serbian word for mistress and is also used there as a first name. We first went online on July 21st, 2006 and therefore we celebrate our anniversary on the name day for "Milovana": July 18th.

How does what has been going on over the last few days fit into the category of sexual techniques, technology or fun?
And most certainly how is this now a safe haven, when your sexuality is verbally abused?

***

A topic was started..."The Post-topic AfterBurn", a SEXUALLY interesting topic:

ordered wrote:
Is it more "normal" to have sex only in the one sinless position of missionary style to produce babies, or is it more "normal" to engage in your preference of kink to make the act more enjoyable for you and your partner (assuming you have a partner. Or to make the act more pleasurable as you maintain your own domain)???

It turned into this by page two, and continued to go down hill from there...

Nezhul wrote:
Anyone can live how they want, but starting an arguement in support of a kink is just WRONG in my opinion. I'm not promoting BDSM - I just like it and state it. If someone'll be freaked aout I won't argue or shout that it's OK and not his busyness. Same way - I'm completely OK about gays, I'd have one as a friend easily if he's a nice person, no problem. BUT I despise ones that go promoting themselves on a freaking parades. Goddamn, just LIVE peacefully and quietly! I just hate it that way. And I know those demonstrations actually only add to hatred and freak people out, so on top of it they are just stupid as hell

**

For gays - it's quite understandable. Our laws don't limit gays in any way than army service (and I think that's not a big deal actually). So as most European counties. Oh wait, I believe there's a problem of child adoption. Well, I can see a point there too actually, as homosexuality is referred as a mental disease by doctors. I'd rather agree to it. Aside of that gays can lead a great life and live it to fullest. Of course telling everyone that you are gay would turn people out because it's UNNATURAL. But if you keep it descreet it'll all be ok.
Parades dont give anything. it's just a freaking sick urge to show off.

**

YES but freedom is also the right to dislike what someone else is expressing. You are FREE to express that you are a gay - you may make a freaking banner and a T-shirt saying you are a gay - you are free. Consequences - are your own though. Noone ever said that you are to expect acception of your views or lifestyle. You are free to express. The point that most of people do not like it and don't agree with you - it THEIR FREEDOM.
Parades won't change people's view. Gays will NEVER convince straight men that fucking another guy is not sick, because for me a thought of fucking a guy is as disgusting as fucking a dog or something. For many straight people homosexuality is almost physically disgusting, that's where such hatred from. You may say it's natural selection. It's not the problem of how you were brought up. It's on gene level (I could develop this thought but wont for now because seems quite self-explanatory to me)

**

You know, actually for me (risking to be called racist though IM NOT) africans and indians and all that dark-skinned people are quite ugly too, or should I say, completely unattractive. And I should point out that not long ago they were treated by all the white community as non-humans. Yet, no one tried to eat them. Even Nazi.
On the other hand I spend a lot of time in the village house in my youth, and I should say cows are actually quite cute and adorable creatures. More cute than negro at least.

*****

Dr. D., Alliteration and I tried, on two separate occasions, to tone the topic down...and then Indy and Alliteration tried to defuse yet another topic run amuck, called, "On male submission being "wrong".

I can't for the life of me figure out why, when attempts were made to lighten the situation, to no success, that Indy was wronged for locking it.
Did he do right or wrong...who cares! He was tired of seeing the same nonsense spouted, insults being slung this way and that. Did he go to far? WHO CARES!!! At least he did something!!!!!!!!!

*****

seraph0x,, I ask you this.
You knew who Indy was. You knew that sometimes he acted on emotion. You knew his past on THIS site, but yet you still made him your right hand man. You knew him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But then when he did what he has always done, be himself, act the way he always has....you penalize him for this. WHY?

*****

Should we all be on the same level as you, seraph0x, where we can right off the name calling, ignore the harsh comments and racial slurs? Probably. But are we going to? No. I didn't ignore one post from "Human" on one thread, but ignored him on another thread. Yes, that's the way we should strive to be.....but it's simply not logical to assume that we will all do that, every time!

*****

This comment you made, seraph0x infuriated me.

The person who does personal attacks doesn't do any harm. The closest you can argue in terms of harm is that he might ruin somebody's mood.

Perhaps you, Sir, do not feel harm. Perhaps your skin is tough and you don't feel pain like others do. And perhaps you even sit back and laugh and smile while the attacks are taking place.

But I am here to tell you that oh yes it does do harm when personal attacks take place online. I will speak for only me, and honestly, I don't care what anyone thinks of me, after I say this.
I almost took my life because of being attacked at a site such as this, a few years back. Words online can be more hurtful, more powerful then the spoken word, and here is why.

If someone says to a man.... "You worthless piece of shit....you are scum because you suck that man's cock, you are lower then two animals fucking..", the person hurts for awhile. Unless they have instant recall, the words will begin to fade, and they will remember only the highlights, of the conversation. I'm not saying it won't hurt and can't cause pain that might not be able to ever fade.

Now take that same man and those same words and take them from some "regular" forum and place them HERE, in a sexual environment.
Let's say that man is struggling with himself, having desires to engage in sexual activity with another man. He happens upon a thread HERE...where words like that are said......and he then feels as if he must hide away his deepest thoughts, instead of searching for answers inside himself.............at a place where he is supposed to feel safe!

Ttell me, seraph0x, is THIS what you dreamed of when you created this site? For a man to feel as if he must lock away his desires and interests because of some member that can't seem to control how they word things?

You want to promote freedom to say what ever you want to....well gosh darn it.....I'm all for that too, but there is a way to say it and a way not to.
Every time Nezhul is brought up, you defend his right instead of listening to the other members telling you...he went to far.
Alliteration said it perfectly. There is a right and wrong way to say things. Nezhul doesn't care about even trying to say it right.
All he cares about is hurting people, just so he can give his all important opinion.

Why, just once, won't you stand up for all the other members and tell him to take it down a notch...hush....take a breath.....anything that tells your members that we are just as important to you, as he is???????????????????
God, he attacked a newbie over the lack of punctuation!!!!!!

When does this end?

Yes, I use to think that kicking Nezhul out of here would be the best thing. Not anymore. I think just telling him once to knock it off....to show us and him that you don't think his behavior is right.....THAT is the right thing...............unless...................you do like his behavior??????????????????????????????????????

[Alliteration]

Which brings me to another subject - anybody who doesn't mind personal attacks should be able to opt out, so if I'd opt out for example, so people could still attack/criticize me without fear of repercussions.

How would one opt out? Perhaps via posting in a designated topic?

Specific statements such as "you are stupid" "you are a moron" should NOT be considered deletable attacks.

I disagree here - these are blatant insults, and don't move discussions forward at all. Things like "You don't know what you're talking about..." however should be acceptable.

Racial, sexist, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, sexual or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual orientation, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse.

I think this line is by far the most important. What should not be allowed (examples):

"Stupid sand monkey"
"Women are stupid"
"Faggots need to get out of the country"
"Old people need to hurry up and die"
"STFU you stupid liberal"
"HAHAHA you're in a wheelchair"

etc...

What should be allowed (again, examples):
"Statistically, people in the middle east are less educated than their western peers"
"Women generally play more of a support role in society"
"Gay sex is immoral and should not be participated in"
etc...

(everyone please note that the above are merely examples)

Contra-wikipedia, I think ad hominem attacks should be allowed, as long as they're not made in the above style.

[Human]

Dr. D., Alliteration and I tried, on two separate occasions, to tone the topic down...and then Indy and Alliteration tried to defuse yet another topic run amuck, called, "On male submission being "wrong".

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you know how offensive it felt for people to trivialise very painful topics by posting random shit? You think that was helpful? People have to deal with these topics everyday, there is no diffusing. If a person phones into a suicide hotline, do you think the operator talking to another operator about the color of his clothes is gonna diffuse the situation?

[shell]

Note to self: If I want to insult someone on the forum, make sure I also insult all the admins at the same time so they can't do anything about it.

*laughing*

[Alliteration]

Note to self: If I want to insult someone on the forum, make sure I also insult all the admins at the same time so they can't do anything about it.

In this situation, I think the violation would be pretty blatant, thus any mod could take action.

[shell]

Dr. D., Alliteration and I tried, on two separate occasions, to tone the topic down...and then Indy and Alliteration tried to defuse yet another topic run amuck, called, "On male submission being "wrong".

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you know how offensive it felt for people to trivialise very painful topics by posting random shit? You think that was helpful? People have to deal with these topics everyday, there is no diffusing. If a person phones into a suicide hotline, do you think the operator talking to another operator about the color of his clothes is gonna diffuse the situation?

Um, no I am not f'ing kidding you.

No, I don't know how offensive it is for people when there is already so much pain because of crap being said, and a little humor is thrown in....like a suit of armour and talking about SEXUAL parts, how that can be harmful.

Yes, I thought it was helpful.

No, I do not think that a suicide hot line operator talking to another operator will defuse it. However, if the operator asks the caller what they are wearing, or can they see any clouds in the sky, or "did you hear that", any of those are a distraction, and just possibly the distraction needed to preserve that life for yet another minute, the pill to be lowered from the mouth, the razor blade to move from the wrist, the gun to move from under the chin, while the caller is caught off guard for a minute.

Did I answer all your questions?

[shell]

GOD I NEED AN ORGASM!!!!!!!

Oh wait....did I just defuse something???? *grin*

[Evals]

This reminds me of something that occurred in early politics in late 1930's, early 1940's germany. Hitler, no doubt, supported his actions by claiming them to be in the best interests of the german people.

...

My actions - however - were always taken with the best interests of the members at hand..

I feel comparing seraph0x to Adolf Hitler would count as a "personal attack." With this in mind, we should immediately delete the offending post, issue a warning or a temporary ban, and hope that this doesn't happen again.

What I find more funny, however, is how you compare seraph0x to Hitler, for the same thing you do. If all it takes is to "support ones actions by claiming them to be in the best interests of the people" to become a Hitler, then by your own post, you would be a Hitler yourself.

Heil mein Führer, Indigo!

[Qwert]

If everybody think before write something that actually can offend someone there would be great community.
But no there always must be wars.
It is one reason why i almost don't post in this place.
The second is my horrible English language

I can say that from my point of view we can't clearly point who is right in this dispute.And becouse there are sides who have their beliefs, and their not try understand other side we will continue this to the point where hatred will be in every topic.

I can't agree with Nezhul's point of view that he don't care if his opinion offend anybody. If I don't care about feelings of rest of the community i don't pretend to be part of it.

I don't go to group of people and tell them that for me cows are prettier then their wifes.This isn't right.

On the other side I remember Indigo "Fuck you Nezhul" and locked topic when Nez talked with Kenneth about closing "Cyber mistress site".He doesn't do any personal attack just writed his opinion about closing site.

As long as I can understand everybody is just human,and humans makes mistakes and sometimes get angry still this was lightly said unprofessional and offending.Especially when it comes to person who was as important to milovana as was Indigo.

And to think that if one guy would try to care little more about feelings of peoples with whom he make community and other would calm down before start acting we wouldn't have this shit at this moment.

And there would not be any discussion about free speech.