The Elephant in the Room

[Alliteration]

Ok, time for me to add my two cents...

First off: I'm very sad to see Indy go. It was a matter of irreconcilable differences - over the last couple of weeks we both realized that we didn't agree on the philosophy of what the role of a moderator on Milovana should be.

I'm not so sure the differences were that irreconcilable. Given all that's been said about personal attacks here, I think a change in your policies might be a good idea.

On the subject of loyalty. Indy ended a debate with a member by locking the thread and proclaiming "Screw you, Nez." Then he sent me an angry PM about it and said he'd "take his own action - appropriate or not" if I didn't respond in time. Sorry, but that gets you probation. So far, probation happened twice, but in both cases it was an internal matter and was ultimately worked out. In this case Indy chose to leave, which is absolutely fine, I don't want to pressure anyone to stay on the Team if they don't feel comfortable with me or the way I do things.

I have a question...was Indy disciplined for getting angry, or for getting angry with *you*? If it's the former, should Nezhul not also be disciplined in some way? Furthermore, isn't it his job to take action when you are not around?

That said, I certainly deserve my share of the blame. I could've handled the whole thing better and I'm going to try and do better in the future. Obviously, Indy's departure is going to create quite a stir - but in the end I think it is for the best. As I said in the beginning of the post - we simply had different ideas about where the site should go. Indy is a fantastic moderator and on most other sites his approach would be welcome and he'd make a great admin.

While you might think of it as for the best, not many people feel the same way. Not only has he been the face of the forums and chat for a long time, he's a close friend to many of us. Furthermore, you now have a spot to fill, especially if the chat continues to grow; which to be honest, it probably won't now that he's gone. And I don't think people are going to be lining up to take his job, after all that's happened. You say you deserve your share of the blame...but if that is true, then I think honestly, you should man up and revoke your decision, and talk it out with Indy and the rest of the team. At this point, though, it's far too late.

Long story short...most of the regulars here feel that you messed up, big time.

[seraph0x]

just wait and see how many people stick around when the place gose to shit...

We've always had free speech protections on this site since day one. They were never perfect of course, but we tried our best to let anybody express their opinion, especially if it was critical of the mods.

if personal attacks are welcome here then indy will be only one of the first to leave.

I've just offered to help Indy set up a new forum outside of Milovana where he would be the only admin. As you correctly point out, he's pretty much run this place anyway and a lot of people seem to agree with him so I'd love to see a place built for them. Obviously creating a forum is a lot of work and somebody has to pay for the server, the domain, etc. And it would be a ton of work for both Indy and me, but if we can make it happen, we'd have a place for everybody.

[tBone]

*just sits in the dark corner and cries*

Put your teases back up. Kthnxbai.

[SexualChoc]

[

We've always had free speech protections on this site since day one. They were never perfect of course, but we tried our best to let anybody express their opinion, especially if it was critical of the mods.

I've just offered to help Indy set up a new forum outside of Milovana where he would be the only admin. As you correctly point out, he's pretty much run this place anyway and a lot of people seem to agree with him so I'd love to see a place built for them. Obviously creating a forum is a lot of work and somebody has to pay for the server, the domain, etc. And it would be a ton of work for both Indy and me, but if we can make it happen, we'd have a place for everybody.

dear seraph first i do appreciate you helping this site exist
but As I have said privately concerning other issues of abuse I saw another individual, not mentioned here or in earlier posts
Nor did you react properly, in my option to all the one page advert tease.

we all make mistakes, including a very human Indigo.
since you failed to stop the flaming one way... against indigo
and blocked it another from indigo
I understand as a moderator, more responsibly is needed.
but is there a line?

there must be because if speach was truly free
than saying some racist epitaph or several lenthy swear words would be allowed.

As a famous writer said (Martin Niemöller's)

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

my point is if yo allow one to put to much hate or abuse
you will lose someone like Indigo.

I will stand against what I see as wrong
even if you do not agree or listen.

oi do not know all the details, and am not trying to say this Individual decision is wrong
I just want to remind you that free speech is not truly free.
apparently there are limits that might cause someone to lose moderator status
and that's good, in a way but what about the other side of the coin
Insighting a riot...if I sublty insult repeadly

Or my pet peeve, still (because the individual is still on this site)
ask you to do self bondage, with absolutely no way out
which leads to DEATH, and yet you allow a person to tell
someone that they should put themselves in a situation that will kill them
if they actually followed the idea to the letter...
...
because of free speech?

maybe I am treading on dangerous water with this post,
and I will retract if I must
I have tried to leave it vague enough that private stays private.
because I want to continue to voice my OPINION
"this should not be this way"
you of course make the final decisions.

[SexualChoc]

*just sits in the dark corner and cries*

"then Job's three friends,... heard about all the troubles that had come upon him, they set out from their homes and met together by agreement to go and sympathize with him and comfort him."

sitting and comforting
and praying for you, Indi

[Nezhul]

All I can say - is that if it's a free speech site - all should be tolerated. Now I'm kind of actually FOR moderating it better, and moderating the personal attacks. BUT if you are going to moderate THAT - moderate everything that causes it. A lot of posts here are kind of one-sided. "Nezhul committed personal attack on Indigo, who, after engaging in an insult war, moderated the topic by closing it. Good Indigo, Bad Nezhul."

Now Excuse me, but if an administrator sees appropriate to deliberately kill a serious discussion with lots of flood, and then calls it

As for flaming the topic ... yeah, maybe. I think it needed a bit of light-hearted banter to break the argumentative mood. That's my prerogative - and anyone else' who decided to do so.

Well... I have all rights to call him a jerk, which I did. That's the only damn protection I have, because I (and no one here) don't have any protection from a topic you are interested in to be killed like that. ANY topic can. If I kill the next topic you like by flood and off-topic - will you like it? And what will you do - there's no moderators to help you. There IS moderators but there only allowed thing to do is actually moving a topic in an appropriate forum if it's mistaken. Let alone who'll moderate an admin? From before I learned that no one does. If he's allowed to kill the threads he doesn't like, I'm allowed to tell him what I think of it, and I don't care what all of you think of it.
If you think that some person's actions should be tolerated just because he does something useful elsewhere - all I can say I don't agree. A moderator should have more responsibility for his behaviour than a member.
You all say here how bad it was to engage in personal Insults. Everyone's trying to conveniently forget how Indigo himself is acting sometimes, doing whatever he sees fit not caring about any rules, nor holding any respect to anyone.

As for the teases and posts deleted and etc - I couldn't say it better: A child gets butthurt.
That's just not the way adult should act.

Now on the other note. I'm actually just shocked about what people write in here.

Ph0x- Indy would never tell you how much he is really hurting over this, he went to you as a friend looking for support and you let him down, big time and are still doing it... i get it, its your site but fuck me...when was the last time you even took a personal interest in anyone of us? really? what sort of mod dosen't even care enough about there own users

You know, just WTF? I'd call that not merely UNGRATEFUL, but simply stupid! You dare say this to a man who created this site, who wrote an engine fot the teases (both normal and nyx), who keeps it up and working? No matter how you look at it, Seraphox ALREADY done far more than Indigo. Many times more. He'd put more time and thought and real money in this site than any one of you! And not only you, everyone! I actually believe seraphox has done not the worst thing. Maybe it could be done milder, but the fact that Indigo acted like a crybaby, deleted all on a whim of emotion and quit - is ENTIRELY his responsibility. I daresay noone could expect this to happen. And all because of what? Because seraphox DARED to not agree to allmighty Indigo's way of doing things. You blame Phox for Indigo's quiting, completely forgetting that it's only INDIGO who acted abnormally and lame. Arent he geting a bit over himself to quit because administrator told him something unpleasent (and which he, let's face it - deserved)? Too much pride, too little brains.
But YOU people... Going here and whining and actually BLAMING indigo's overreaction to Seraphox?! you are acting like a bunch of ungrateful spoiled kids.

[Handcuffed]

"Personal attacks" I feel should only be acted upon if they are threats. Calling someone a jerk is really not a big deal IMO.

[seraph0x]

I have a question...was Indy disciplined for getting angry, or for getting angry with *you*?

He was put on probation to make it clear that it is not ok to end a debate by locking the thread, insulting the community member he was debating with and threatening me with "taking action" against that member if I don't respond in time.

I posted moderation guidelines, noting that wanted to work on these for a while, then open them up for discussion. Instead of waiting for that, Indy decided to delete his posts and revoke his rank. I also was working on a response to his most recent PM at the time and he didn't wait for that either.

So I never kicked him out, he left.

The way he left is the reason why I don't want to take him back on. If he's going to create a big public spectacle every time we disagree, I can't run the site like that. I understand a lot of you are here because of Indy and even more of you are his friends. That's why I suggested creating a new community/forum, run by Indy. There is no reason you should have to split up just because Indy and I went our separate ways.

As for the free speech issue, as I said, Indy left before the discussion on the mod guidelines was to take place, I have pretty strong opinions on the subject, because the existing rules have served us well for five years, so I don't really want to start that debate until I've had a chance to even write down the old rules formally and get feedback from some Team members. We probably will decide it within the Team though and I will have the last word, if for no other reason than the fact that there are legal issues involved and it's my head on the line.

"Personal attacks" I feel should only be acted upon if they are threats. Calling someone a jerk is really not a big deal IMO.

Physical threats are illegal under US law. This applies to so-called "true threats" as opposed to threats made in jest. Obviously anything that is against the law is prohibited on the site as well, no matter what else we choose to ban in addition. (-- I am not a lawyer. --)

[Incubo]

I'm not going to comment specifically about the Nezhul/Indy war as frankly, I didn't see anything that was worth getting up tight about, but stop and think about what has been said in this thread already.

A lot of you obviously like Indy a lot. Great. No problem there, but and here's the thing....if he's that emotional about petty crap like this, then perhaps he really shouldn't be a moderator. Nezhul called him a jerk. Seriously, big deal. I'm sure everyone here has been called worse before. I know I have. It's not that serious really. Indy may be a nice guy and he may do lots of stuff you folks like, but if his skin is that thin then I'm sorry, he just doesn't have the temperment to be a moderator.

No reason to lose him completely though either, perhaps the solution is simply, allow him to remain an admin so he can do those things he does, but tell him not to moderate discussions. Limit him to those things he does and remove those things he doesn't seem to have the temperment for.

However, if Indy elects to leave, then that's his choice. I don't see any reason to jump on Seraph0x about it. From what he said, Seraph0x isn't throwing him out or anything, so I don't see why everyone is mad at him.

Just my opinion for what it's worth. And remember, you didn't pay anything for it.

[Human]

It quite pains me to see Seraph0x getting so slammed here.
IMHO:

Seraph0x was 100% right. Nezhul did go into personal insult territory, but he was close to border. Indy escalated it to a full blown personal attack. And then locked the thread. I CANNOT understand how anyone can view this as appropriate behavior for an admin.

Indy has done a lot for this site. But does that mean he should be allowed hot headed inappropiate behavior?

Free Speech thing: I agree with Seraph0x. The reason is that some touchy topics have been discussed here, and if free speech were not allowed, blunt people would get banned under the accusation of personal attacks. Some of people protesting against the free speech thing have been the ones who have indulged in personal attacks.

To Indy: I hope you calm down. I also hope you realise that you are not ready to be a moderator. One of the requirements for successful moderation is that you remain calm and impartial, and unaffected by attacks or opinions. You however get emotionally affected very quickly. This is not an insult, this is just how you are; and there is nothing wrong with it. This emotional makeup however makes you unsuitable for mod duties; and when you are a mod, it puts a lot of strain on you mentally.

To Seraph0x: Sir, I admire your site, your work, and principles.In this barrage of attacks on you, I offer my support for your stand.

To people calling Seraph0x names: Wow. You disagree with his free speech policy and choose to abuse it by calling him names?????? Hypocrites. And geez, he fucking created this site, wrote the tease engines. Have some respect.

[Handcuffed]

I'm not going to comment specifically about the Nezhul/Indy war as frankly, I didn't see anything that was worth getting up tight about, but stop and think about what has been said in this thread already.

A lot of you obviously like Indy a lot. Great. No problem there, but and here's the thing....if he's that emotional about petty crap like this, then perhaps he really shouldn't be a moderator. Nezhul called him a jerk. Seriously, big deal. I'm sure everyone here has been called worse before. I know I have. It's not that serious really. Indy may be a nice guy and he may do lots of stuff you folks like, but if his skin is that thin then I'm sorry, he just doesn't have the temperment to be a moderator.

No reason to lose him completely though either, perhaps the solution is simply, allow him to remain an admin so he can do those things he does, but tell him not to moderate discussions. Limit him to those things he does and remove those things he doesn't seem to have the temperment for.

However, if Indy elects to leave, then that's his choice. I don't see any reason to jump on Seraph0x about it. From what he said, Seraph0x isn't throwing him out or anything, so I don't see why everyone is mad at him.

Just my opinion for what it's worth. And remember, you didn't pay anything for it.

QFT

[Nezhul]

A post makes me worry of someone's mental health actually...

So you claim to protect free speech, yet when I bring an issue to the foreground
....
And btw - I didn't bring any of this to the foreground.

Well at least make up your mind - you DID or you DIDN'T?

But don't *any* of you think I'm going to sit idly by while you attempt to discredit me, or slam my reputation.

Seriously, you are slamming your reputation YOURSELF, aint it right? You act like a child. What are you going to do now, when no more posts left to delete - maybe change a phone number and e-mail, THEN it'll show us?... You are trying to act like some freaking martyr here! Your friends are protecting you for now, but do you actually think that if you kick yourself in the nuts by deleting your posts you'll make yourself look more persuading and rightful? "Look what I have done to myself in the sign of protest, I'm poor and desperate, and those bad people even revoked my admin privilages!!! Rise with me oh fellow forumers, RISE against the wretched administrators views!!!"
Seriously if you have a disagreement you should TALK. Deleting your posts as the form of showing protest is STUPID. Making the fuss over "poor you" to bring some problem forth is stupid. If you want something changed or problem solved you could talk it over. No team needs a person who'll create this crap on the forums over such a silly and little thing.

I've been here longer than a good majority of my critics

And that automatically makes you right and your critics wrong, that's what you are saying? Or should rightful criticism on your side be just ignored because you were here first?

Frankly, it comes across as a way for you to save face, because you're getting called on the carpet.

by WHOM seraphox may be called to the carpet? Aren't you a bit forgetting yourself now? Seems like you suddenly think you have more authority or something...

Nez - as I said, you have a right to an opinion. But I'd *really* appreciate it if you'd quit the namecalling. I've already apologized for it on my end, can we please just let it go at that?

What did I say now? The way I disapprove of your behaviour on this new issue? See, I don't really care about your feelings. If I think something's stupid I call it exactly that.

[les]

It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence.

                   It biases the judgement.

My dad often told me

It's surprising what you can
and
What you can't do
When you know what the rules are!

I think its about time we had a chance for everybody to thresh out the rules for this site.
I feel that in the act of not over moderating we have sunk to being moderated by guesswork.

I have had my run ins with a lot of people on this site.

But the one thing that annoys me more than anything is the use of selective quotations.
The pulling of a phrase out of context, to back a premiss.
Maybe such quotes should be linked back to the origin?

[1885]

As a famous writer said (Martin Niemöller's)

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

True enough...

I've been here longer than a good majority of my critics

They're not gone. They're hiding. I can't stand the amount of hate being thrown seraph0x's way in this thread, and seeing how I've been where he's been, I need to come out of the closet and tell my story to give my 2 cents, and I don't care if half the site ends up hating me as a result.

Early 2008 I registered with Milovana for the first time under the name "The Edge". Indigo registered here for the first time as well under the name kesbabev. (Indigo changed his signature to acknowledge this and other former usernames during one of his numerous "I'm leaving Milovana" episodes, so this is nothing he hasn't brought out to the open himself) kesbabev was an amazing tease writer, and when we came up with the idea to collaborate on a tease, it was a very welcome prospect. We took turns writing parts of a tease called Hell Hath No Fury, which spanned several chapters which I wrote the conclusion to. Wanting to end the tease with a bang, I wrote 150 pages, encompassing every character we had both created and offering three different fleshed out storylines to end the series with.

When I posted it, kesbabev became very upset with me. When I questioned him about it, he felt that I had upstaged him by writing such a long tease. That certainly wasn't my intention, but the tease ended up garnering a 4.6 rating and looked like a shoo-in for TOTM, which upset kesbabev even more. In an attempt to show respect to our friendship, I told the co-admin at the time to take my tease out of consideration for TOTM. It was a small gesture for a petty matter, I valued kesbabev's friendship over the award.

What happened next was completely bewildering. kesbabev created numerous alternate usernames to grief me and cause me trouble. Back then I was just discovering that I had Asperger's Syndrome, and kesbabev cranked up my oversensitivity to a point where I absolutely could not take it anymore. I had to stop being a part of Milovana, because kes and his countless alts were making my life hell, and I couldn't understand why or how to make it stop.

From that point on I only lurked, and I watched kesbabev become Ashe, who ended up causing no small amount of drama with a woman (who to be fair, wasn't above causing drama herself), and Ashe was put to rest.

Ashe then became someone who Indigo hasn't publicly claimed, so I won't either, but whose sole purpose was to deceive the entire site, even while declaring that the intentions were noble.

And on and on it went, going through names until he finally became Indigo. And the only constant through all of this is that Indigo needs attention, and he gets attention through drama that makes him a martyr.

For a while there, Indigo would make a new "I'm leaving Milovana" thread every few months, soak up the sympathy of the well-wishers, disappear for a few days then come right back in business as usual, rinse lather repeat.

He convinced many people the entire site was closing as a result of an April Fool's joke that was accidentally made on the wrong day. Really? He then took the chance to sacrifice himself on the altar of regret when people became genuinely concerned.

Indigo says this all started because he was sick of being helpless to handle personal attacks? No wonder he deleted his entire post history then, because Indigo makes far worse personal attacks more often than Nezhul does. The one that sticks out the most is the thread where Nezhul was trying to understand Kenneth's reasoning for discontinuing CyberMistress, and Indigo tires of it after a single post of his own and throws up a picture of someone flipping the bird and saying, "Hey Nezhul, FUCK YOU".

But for as much as Indigo can dish it out, his skin can be pretty thin sometimes. And what happens is what happened to me and has happened countless times since. Indigo has a problem, acts completely macabre (such as posting *just sits in a dark corner and cries* in a thread that demands a substantive response) martyrs himself to draw as much support as possible, then charges at you with his own version of reality that you cannot defend against without appearing like you're attacking him. It's manipulative, self-serving and horribly disingenuous.

In the end, it's all drama, all to serve Indigo's need to martyr himself for attention. It's completely hypocritical when Indigo can say "Indigo™ wrote: Tolerance of other peoples' beliefs is the critical factor here. Without that, there will *never* be lasting peace anywhere. Including here, on this forum" when it's aimed at Human, but can't seem to apply it to himself when he backlashes at Nezhul for calling him a jerk in the exact same thread.

"Indigo™ wrote: You're free to have your own opinions, but guess what ... so am I. So is Allit, and Human, and anyone else who wants to post. Buck up and deal with it, or go get another bottle, crawl back into your crib, and shut the fuck up. I'm open minded, and all for freedom of expression, but I'll be damned if I'm just going to sit idly by while you try to run me in the mud. Newsflash asshole[Nezhul], in case you haven't noticed yet, you're a minority."

Sheer and utter hypocrisy.

Obviously I am not a proponent of Indigo. But since coming back to Milovana under the name of 1885, I have worked with him to take over TOTM duties, to begin a dialogue that would lead me to seraph0x and the reinstating of the badges and awards. I didn't let my opinion of Indigo stop me from doing that. To me, *that's* how a moderator should act, putting aside one's personal issues for the objective good of the site. Indigo has shown repeatedly that he is not capable of this, and it is insanely hypocritical and unjust to somehow blame any of this on seraph0x.

I don't what will come of this, I may not have a friend left when it's all said and done. But I would rather get run out of town on rails doing what's right than let seraph0x be held accountable for Indigo's actions and stay silent.

That's all I have to say about that. I have no plan for moving forward. I know I can co-exist with Indigo. I'm just waiting for the day that Indigo's words can co-exist with Indigo's actions.

- 1885

[AngelAnna837]

Thank you all..really thank you for emotionally destroying the man i love...


I am speaking from a potion on true love and emotion right now so expect no logic or rationality.

So far as i can tell personal attacks are still allowed...(this is not directed at everyone, and not those who i have come to consider friends)

...and the truth is you are all stupid fucking halfwits , with less compassion that a chicken nugget between you... you all just have to push and push and push to make sure your voice is heard to be the smart one. always having to be right, never even considering for a second that anyone is getting hurt, just so long as you make your self sounds big and important... so you know what, go and get a fucking life... if you have nothing etter to do than luck around here, flaming and insulting everyone to make them feel small and insulted then fuck you... that is truly my defintly of a sad loney ass-hole with nothing better to do...

1885- talk about maytering yourself, the noble man who has "put up" with indy all these years...yeah fucking right, there was no need to bring any of that up, its not relevant to the conversation and might i just add how fucking dare you make any assumptions about someone you hardly know, I know his reason for doing what he did and you know what you could not be further from the truth so next time you feel the next to open you mouth feel free to engage your brain first....trust me it helps...

To everyone else who as done nothing but try to drive the point hime that they were in the right, they did nothing wrong blah blah blah...its dosnet matter what you say now,,, the damage is done and its on your heads...no two ways about it... you can try and rationalzie all you want, you can try and squirm this was and that about it but you know that..fuck you..this is your fault and i know it...

I hope you call consider yours selfs personally flammed now, but you know what i couldn't care less, me and Indy are moving on with our real life....while you all sit here behind a mask getting your rocks-off by being ass holes and jerks...so have fun dying alone...i wont miss you...


This is it for me Milovana....its been....well its been....

(p.s hows that for fucking drama....)