The Elephant in the Room

[shell]

I am not beyond approaching the elephant that so many want to approach but don't know how to.

The elephant......Indigo's issues and then his leaving.

I am so shocked by what has happened, as are many others!

Do I have all the facts? No. Was I involved? No! Am I a Milovana Team Member? No!
Do I have a right to speak out about this, yes....according to seraph0x, I can say what ever I want on here, and I won't be removed from the site, I won't be hushed. So.....I will have my say!
And I might be talking out of my butt.......but I simply don't care!!!!!!!!

***

The facts as I know them.....on one of the threads, Indy and Nezhul got into it. Indy, BEING A HUMAN BEING, got pissed. He locked the thread down. But he or one of the other Team Members unlocked it, not to long afterwards....perhaps a few hours.

The rumors are, is that Indy was put on probation for his action.

In doing this, it hurt Indy, rightly so, and he removed his posts and left.
Are we to sit back and watch a valuable part of our community just leave without a fight? HELL NO!

Everyone that really knows me, knows that Indy and I have had our ups and downs. But that doesn't change the fact that he is a person that goes above and beyond. He takes the lead when no other person will take it.
Does he allow his emotions to get the best of him sometimes? Yes! But who on this site can say that they never let that happen.

***

Now, seraph0x, I address this to you.

In a thread, back in March, that Lady X started, at http://www.milovana.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6635 , you are quoted saying the following!

Finally a word on our mods themselves: Obviously there is a higher standard that I hold Team members to. But I also know that being a mod is stressful and getting attacked and criticized is part of the job. And even if a mod crosses the line, well we're all human. I've slipped up myself and barked at people many times. So it would take quite a bit for me to revoke somebody's mod privileges. You don't get paid money for being a mod here, but you do get my loyalty and respect especially through a rough patch. If a mod feels the job has become a chore (nobody has lasted for more than two years of active moderating so far), I trust them to know when to voluntarily step down or take a break.

And on the recent thread, on September 11th, that you stared, at http://www.milovana.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7738 , where you announced his promotion to Co-Admin, you said,

Thanks for many years of loyal service to this community - I cannot imagine where Milovana would be today without the countless hours you've put in when I was too busy.

So, I ask you....where was your loyalty to Indy? Where was you tollerance for making a mistake?
Are you going to spend the countless hours that he did, in making things run smoothly?
Are you going to take over the leadership of the Chess Tournament that he was overseeing, because no one else stepped up to the plate?

***

So there you have my rant.....and hopefully, since we all know that we will not be banned from the site for speaking our minds, hopefully, others will feel free enough to voice their thoughts here too.

***

If you want to PM me messages, of kindness, to Indy, I will accept them, gather them up and send them to him, via email.

*steps off of the soapbox.......but leaves it there for the next person*

Shell

[tBone]

What. Who. When.
How did I miss this?

[dr.d]

What. Who. When.
How did I miss this?

thats what I would like to know , last night I was going to continue to debate nezhul but I was tired and went to bed and now I come here to check things and I find this

I am trying to find the silver lining here ,hopefully Indy will be back , tanned , rested and with some great stories to share about funny things that he and Anna did on this "vacation"

Shell please tell Indy that I wish him well and that I hope he comes back

[Nezhul]

I'd have to say that even though I disagree strongly with how he does things sometimes, I never for a second wanted him gone. Personally I didn't notive anything, but if shell is right... Well, I think that first of all all should take it easy. Don't know where those rumors you are talking about come from. Anyway it's all really shady to me, what was said to whom and in what words? Knowing people I can assume anything. Maybe someone pointed him he was wrong mildly, and he overreacted. Maybe the point was harsh, and he had a reason to react that way. Maybe there even wasnt ANY debate and he just felt depressed of a whole situation and quit himself? I don'tknow and noone does, and discussing and assuming anything won't do any good to anyone. One thing I can say is that it's probably wrong to blame seraphox of something, or accuse him in the lack of loyalty, while you dont actually know what happened. Or do you have any facts (even if you cant actually name them)?
And I still think that Indigo's attitude is inappropriate and disgracing for a moderator, let alone admin. When he doesn't like what someone says he starts trolling, flooding, laughing and insulting without any shame or limit, that's my view on him. I would really like him to stop being like that, but quiting from the site because someone didn't support you? Well, for an adult person it's at the very least strange.

[SexualChoc]

What the HELL
did I miss?

I looked at My folder for Indi profile and he and NO posts
and is classed as a Newbie?
what the hell? is going on?


Apparently the fuss is about posting and deleting things.
and specific individual harassing.

I knew the policy of minimal censorship would bite us sometime
i realize gray areas are difficult to sort out into black and white issues.
but I have had grievances that I felt warranted an individual on Milo being banned permanenly
and nothing was done about it.

So now we have Indigo leaving a most valued member
here since the site started
and Lord only know how chat will run without him.
and some individual staying?
Makes me wanna scream too shell!

[Snare]

I completely agree with shell on this. We are all human beings, we all have emotions, and right now my emotion is outrage!

*Steps on shell's soapbox*

To seraph0x;
How can you let Indy, someone who basically ran your site for you whenever you were not around, go over something like this. In the 2 years that I have been lurking, the 2 1/2 months I have been a member, and the month and a half I have been a chat moderator I have seen Indigo do more for this site than than any other member. I may be getting a little emotional here because he is my friend but I am not letting the facts get away from me. In the past 2 1/2 months I have been active Indy has made the chat rooms flourish (your challenge), moved topics to their appropriate forums (something I have seen no one else do), run the Chess Tournament (which no one wanted to run), and make this place a fun and safe environment for all of us. I don't know how this place will function without Indy. I have only seen 1 Team Member, not Mistress Jenifer, be anywhere close to being as active as Indy was. I have read the forum postings and think that Indy was not in the wrong for locking that topic, for as he told me when I first became a chat moderator " hatred wins, when good people do nothing."

Snare

P.S. If I am in any sort of wrong for saying this please let me know, but it won't matter if I am, offending people apparently holds no consequences.

*Steps off the shell's soapbox and waits to see the next brave soul reply*

[les]

"We seem to have fallen upon evil days.
"Come, Watson, come! The game is afoot!"


I hope all is not as dour as first seems.
Although some strange facts are coming to light.
More I cannot say for now.

[Evals]

Reminds me of what Submatt used to do and also what happened with Cybermistress.org. I've no respect for their actions, either. (edited since it's been clarified now)

[tBone]

Now, as to my leaving. I'm on the fence, at this point. I've removed my tease

I love when people get butt-hurt, then delete all their content so no-one can use it as to say a final "fuck you". I honestly don't see any point in removing the teases other than this. Same thing with cybermistress happened. Kid gets butthurt and disallows anyone from using good software that people enjoy. In my books, you shall no longer be missed.

[tallguy2241]

Okay - time to clear some of the misconceptions up.

One - *I* removed all of my posts, and I did so willingly.
Two - Yes, Seraph0x put me on probation. He did so because of an admittedly angry PM I sent him over Nezhuls personal attacks. I locked two topics after the attacks were made, and I asked for direction on how to resolve the issues, because I believe that the personal attacks have *NO PLACE* on milovana. And this is where the intrinsic conflict lies.

As a result of the PM's between myself and Seraph0x, in addition to being put on probation, he instituted a policy for Moderators to adhere to. As I understand it, it's a work in progress. I won't post it here, because if he wanted it public, he would post it publicly, and it's not my place to override him on such things. The basics though, is that he wants to ensure the freedom of speech that I think every one of us holds dear. Our conflict arises because of a minor difference of opinion that has gotten way out of hand - but I view to be critical to my ability to successfully do the job I was tasked with doing. Ph0x's viewpoint is that anybody can say what they want here, without repercussion, with the usual exceptions (ie. Spamming, flooding, illegal, underage, etc.). I agree wholeheartedly, with *one* exception. I believe that if personal attacks are allowed to continue on the forum, that it will lead to an environment where members may no longer feel comfortable here. I believe that there are people who come to this site to get information, exchange ideas, and garner a greater knowledge of the things that interest them. And I believe that Milovana is one of the best places on the internet to do so. I know that in my own experience, there are just some things you don't talk about IRL, for fear of embarassment, resentment, rejection, shame, etc.

To nezhul - I would wholeheartedly defend your right to exist here to anyone. I would defend your right to post your thoughts, ideas, and opinions freely. What I would *not* condone, is the personal attacks you have made against people, both in past, and present posts. I believe them to cause nothing but harm, and I believe that there should be some sort of repercussion for such remarks. I do not exempt myself from that either. I have, myself, engaged in such activities - and have no qualms about admitting to my mistakes.

Now, as to my leaving. I'm on the fence, at this point. I've removed my teases, and my posts. My feelings on the subject are that with recent remarks, and policy implementations that Seraph0x has made, that my hands are effectively tied, with regards to being able to effectively manage/moderate the forum. So, the ball is in his court. I've PMed him with a last, desperate, heartfelt plea to consider carefully the implications of his policy, and asked him to at least grant me the latitude I believe is necessary to effectively do my job. If he no longer wants me on the Team/Administration staff, that's his decision. As to my remaining a member of the site, ... I think again, it depends. I've dedicated a lot of time here, both to the site, and the people. But if the leaderships' views and decisions are to allow the type of behavior that has gone on, and will no doubt continue to go on, then Milovana is not the place I believed it to be. As to the reasons I removed my content - it is being made abundantly clear to me that there are people who do not respect my right to post as I feel appropriate - or is warranted. If my critics feel that I'm behaving inappropriately, then I will duly modify my behavior. Depending on the response, I will either be a *very* silent member from here on out, or perhaps not at all.

I am no longer accepting PM's to my inbox, however, if *any* member should wish to contact me, I will still maintain my inbox, [email protected], for as long as Seraph0x allows me to keep it.

I hope that this has clarified any questions that folks might have, and has served to settle the rumors that are no doubt flying around.

- Indy -

Bold emphasis in the preceding quote is mine:

Ok, enough lurking, it's time for me to speak up.

I'm not going to try to get in the middle of what happened between Indy and Nezhul...that's their business. But why is it that every time someone gets their panties in a bunch on this site, the first reaction is "I'm taking down all my teases." There are dozens/hundreds/thousands on this site that quietly log in, look at the newest teases, play their favorites from long ago, and go quietly about their day. And even though they don't comment a lot, they may not write a lot (or any) teases, they nonetheless enjoy the hard work and creativity that went into those teases.

So, someone has a tiff with someone else, and all those innocent users of the site get punished? In the words of Cartman:" Screw you guys, I'm going home."

I have stuck with this site through good times and bad. I've had my own issues with some things here, and even reached a point where I thought I wouldn't come back. But at no point did I consider taking down my teases (not that there are many, but still), because I knew there were people out there that enjoyed them. If any issue gets me to walk away from this site once and for all, it's this one.

End of rant.

[janmb]

I'm no part in this mess, but as a steady user I will give my two cents too:

What Shell said: Spot on, with the reservation of the assumptions being correct. Indy cleared up some.

Indy: I completely understand your reaction. The balance between a very open site (which I love) vs the need to avoid personal conflicts from escalating is a difficult one. In my opinion you were probably wrong in locking a thread, especially when the conflict involves yourself. On the other hand it is understandable given some of the posts made by others, and ph0x should not stomp on you for it. But again, a hard balance to strike. While the freedom we enjoy on this site is a good thing, that isn't much use if the site is also ruined by personal feuds being allowed in public posts. And unfortunately the last year has made clear that we have a couple posters constantly stepping on others' toes, and very deliberately so.

To those posters, you know very well who you are: Why is it so hard to simply stay respectful and tolerant to others' opinions?

[seraph0x]

First off: I'm very sad to see Indy go. It was a matter of irreconcilable differences - over the last couple of weeks we both realized that we didn't agree on the philosophy of what the role of a moderator on Milovana should be.

On the subject of loyalty. Indy ended a debate with a member by locking the thread and proclaiming "Screw you, Nez." Then he sent me an angry PM about it and said he'd "take his own action - appropriate or not" if I didn't respond in time. Sorry, but that gets you probation. So far, probation happened twice, but in both cases it was an internal matter and was ultimately worked out. In this case Indy chose to leave, which is absolutely fine, I don't want to pressure anyone to stay on the Team if they don't feel comfortable with me or the way I do things.

That said, I certainly deserve my share of the blame. I could've handled the whole thing better and I'm going to try and do better in the future. Obviously, Indy's departure is going to create quite a stir - but in the end I think it is for the best. As I said in the beginning of the post - we simply had different ideas about where the site should go. Indy is a fantastic moderator and on most other sites his approach would be welcome and he'd make a great admin.

In conclusion, I want to thank Indy again for his contributions and I wish him the absolute best in the future, online and offline.

[Hood]

Excellent post, the title is picture perfect. It's sad to see you go Indigo. Quite often the presence of a mod is enough to deter alot of what otherwise would be abuse. Sad to see you go.

However, beyond that: This is an issue that effects every user of Milovana.
As i understand it, currently personal attacks have zero reprecussions here, which honestly seems like an insane decision. It creates an enviroment whereby the "trolls" are protected and real users are put at their mercy. If a person is intentionally posting with the only goal being either to insult, berate or otherwise harm another poster, why wouldn't that be moderated against?

I mean, i made a joke in chat about this just now. It's all well and good saying there's no rule against personal attacks, however if rather than make a point: I came in here just calling X Y and Z person a shithead, how long would it last exactly? Would/could I simply peruse the forum insulting who i chose?
I mean, i'm pretty sure if every second or third thread was a "Hood is an Idiot" type thread, something would be done, no?

Milovana is great because it allows users to "Explore your sexuality!". It's always been a safe place to do that too, having no rule against personal attacks certainly makes it less safe and makes the forum a potential breeding ground for trolls.

[curiousSK]

If personal attacks are allowed then does that include attacks aimed at the team as well? because if all is fine, then i think that Phox is being a bit of a cunt in allowing Indy to just walk - Indy has been a fantastic mod in chat and on the forums here. Indy has a perfectly valid point that he doesn't want people making personal attacks towards one another, and i personally cannot understand why any site owner would want their site to house personal attacks freely - that's like a government allowing the public to assault each-other.

I would say that this should be a matter of public vote, however it's not because 'Phox owns the site, however; if personal attacks are welcome here then indy will be only one of the first to leave.

[AngelAnna837]

If personal attacks are allowed then does that include attacks aimed at the team as well? because if all is fine, then i think that Phox is being a bit of a cunt in allowing Indy to just walk.

Agreed...

You all know my feeling for Indy, i love him very very much and as i true scot i can be a little hot headed at time but this is just off the scale wrong.

Ph0x- Indy would never tell you how much he is really hurting over this, he went to you as a friend looking for support and you let him down, big time and are still doing it... i get it, its your site but fuck me...when was the last time you even took a personal interest in anyone of us? really? what sort of mod dosen't even care enough about there own users to allow them an environment where they are not going to get insuled and just be made to take it under the pretence of "free speech"... dose this count too for racism? I am all for free speech, say what the hell you want, but when someone is getting hurt by it, a line has to be drawn....
Indy was loved by so many for being the guy that cared, and you know what he really did give a damn about ever person on this site, and he worked his ass off for everyone of them, but you know what, for the what 18,000 registed memeber not everyone is gonna get on with every one and i think its truly sick that you are still choosing to let him walk out the door and ever saying its for the best!!! what the hell!!

Any and all respect i had for you is now long gone...so let the trolls take over, let everyone offend everyone and let no one care if it makes you happy....


just wait and see how many people stick around when the place gose to shit...

my final words... you Sir are an ass-hole