Respect and submission demanded or earned?

[kinkybritain]

................

[cumhardy]

depends on the sub and the dom.
Personally for me I like to know WHY im submitting to them...Give me a reason. Respect is earned.

Then you have the subs that like to feel worthless, that they are beneath everyone... Im guessing for them its different.

[SexualChoc]

Well logically it impossible to serve to many mistresses
after all you only have so much time.
And some commands may be conflicting
Cum / don't cum. (as an example)

You may want to glance at my forum post about Abuse
http://www.milovana.com/forum/viewtopic ... use#p68190

Pick one mistress to serve is my suggestion.

[Incubo]

My view:

Submission is given, not automatically assumed. A sub submits to me because she wants to, not because she has to. Now, it's frequently fun to pretend that she has no other choice and that's perhaps part of the fantasy, but it's definately not reality. It's always a choice to submit.

As for respect....it is always earned, not given. Not just in a D/s relationship, but in everything.

[Forevergallant]

IN reality the submissive has the most actual power to begin with. They Choose to submit themselves to the control of another person. Now of course, that doesnt cover more ..extreme circumstances that are illegal.

referring to a slave in the third person bothers me as well.

[JDude]

I'm a sub who has served both men and women.

A Sir that I know, but have never served, gets offended if I don't refer to him as 'Sir.' It annoys me but I figure if it means that much to him.. what the hell.

[TheGraduate]

Absolutely not.

In the BDSM world, nobody is subject to anybody's chosen role without consent.

Unless you have an agreement with someone about a power exchange, you are equals and should interact as such. To foist your fantasies on someone else by insisting they interact with you as anything else is disgusting and unflattering, no matter the gender or role.

If you're a submissive, don't call a domme "Mistress" if she isn't your Mistress. Don't take orders from her, either, unless you have a consensual agreement to do so for all parties involved.

If you're a dom, don't call a submissive by a sub name or go giving them orders if they aren't your sub, unless you have some sort of arrangement with their consent and the consent of their partner.

This is absolutely a serious matter of consent, and these are real people with real rights. So are you.

In my (quite large) offline scene, people who act like that are very quickly ostracized. Sane, healthy, competent kink players understand the importance of consent. You shouldn't be playing with those who don't.

I'm a sub who has served both men and women.

A Sir that I know, but have never served, gets offended if I don't refer to him as 'Sir.' It annoys me but I figure if it means that much to him.. what the hell.

By ceding to his demands, you show him that what he is doing is acceptable, and therefore become part of the problem.

If you don't call him on his shit, it's partially your fault when he goes on and insists someone else call him Sir or tries bossing people around. You need to let him know that it isn't okay.

[storydejour]

As a rule of thumb, I try to be polite to everyone until they do something to warrant otherwise. That's whether dealing in the realm of D/s or not.

I am especially polite to women, and if I know a woman is a domme, will try to address her in an appropriate manner (Yes Ma'am, No Ma'am .. but not "Mistress"). However, the bottom line there still depends on whether I think she's worth it. If she's clearly a piece of trash showing off tattoos on sagging boobs with a cigarette dangling out the corner of her mouth, it puts me totally out of the submissive mood. I guess that means I'm not a "real" sub by some standards, doesn't it?

As for the so called dominant males... I might address one as "Sir" under special circumstances, but for the most part I find the whole concept somewhat absurd. The guy who's all full of himself and dresses in a black leather costume thinking people should be falling at his feet would be safer going outside to wash and wax my truck and hope I don't make him my bitch.

So yeah, I'd have to vote for "earned".

[Dan]

Absolutely not.

In the BDSM world, nobody is subject to anybody's chosen role without consent.

Unless you have an agreement with someone about a power exchange, you are equals and should interact as such. To foist your fantasies on someone else by insisting they interact with you as anything else is disgusting and unflattering, no matter the gender or role.

If you're a submissive, don't call a domme "Mistress" if she isn't your Mistress. Don't take orders from her, either, unless you have a consensual agreement to do so for all parties involved.

If you're a dom, don't call a submissive by a sub name or go giving them orders if they aren't your sub, unless you have some sort of arrangement with their consent and the consent of their partner.

This is absolutely a serious matter of consent, and these are real people with real rights. So are you.

In my (quite large) offline scene, people who act like that are very quickly ostracized. Sane, healthy, competent kink players understand the importance of consent. You shouldn't be playing with those who don't.

By ceding to his demands, you show him that what he is doing is acceptable, and therefore become part of the problem.

If you don't call him on his shit, it's partially your fault when he goes on and insists someone else call him Sir or tries bossing people around. You need to let him know that it isn't okay.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this completely. When it comes to addressing someone, it's just simple politeness to refer to them by the name they wish. In my line of work, I always ask someone whether they'd prefer to be called Mrs Jones, or they're happy for me to address them by the first name, or even a nickname. Why should it be any different online? I think it should apply even more so on a fetish site where it is understood that various D/s roles do exist. I don't think there's any need to be awkward about addressing someone by Sir/ Ma'am/Miss whatever, if that's what they call themselves.

I also do think that there is a certain level of consent implied by simply being present on a site like this and taking part in conversations on chat or the forums, which would automatically carries with it a certain level of respect. It's just like real life, even if you have a Mistress/Master already, they would expect you to be polite and respectful to others wouldn't they? This is different to following orders of other Dom/mes of course, which would obviously require explicit consent.

At the end of the day, I think it's unreasonable and unrealistic to expect all subs to automatically bow down to a Dom/me, however that's no reason to act without basic respect towards them.

[AkachanNoPuraguIn]

Earned definately. If the Dom/me demands this kinda groveling from everyone it's abuse not submission. As for the respect part hat has to be earned and, personally, that has to be earned before the submission can happen.

I honestly think that Dom/mes who demand that all subs serve them is just arrogence and manipulation.

Miss Nadia

[TheGraduate]

I'm not sure I'd agree with this completely. When it comes to addressing someone, it's just simple politeness to refer to them by the name they wish. In my line of work, I always ask someone whether they'd prefer to be called Mrs Jones, or they're happy for me to address them by the first name, or even a nickname. Why should it be any different online? I think it should apply even more so on a fetish site where it is understood that various D/s roles do exist. I don't think there's any need to be awkward about addressing someone by Sir/ Ma'am/Miss whatever, if that's what they call themselves.

I also do think that there is a certain level of consent implied by simply being present on a site like this and taking part in conversations on chat or the forums, which would automatically carries with it a certain level of respect. It's just like real life, even if you have a Mistress/Master already, they would expect you to be polite and respectful to others wouldn't they? This is different to following orders of other Dom/mes of course, which would obviously require explicit consent.

At the end of the day, I think it's unreasonable and unrealistic to expect all subs to automatically bow down to a Dom/me, however that's no reason to act without basic respect towards them.

I never said that respect should not be given. Asking someone if they prefer Sir, Ma'am, Miss, etc. is fine.
Calling them by one on nothing but an assumption, or using the more intimate titles of Mistress, Master, etc is a different story.

No, there is no assumption about consent. Consent is never to be assumed outside of a relationship where you know the person well enough to read them. I am also not just talking about being present on "a site like this" but a real life dungeon. Anyone who comes to a dungeon party around here doesn't last long if they make assumptions about consent.

A Dom/me may request that I call them by some title. I may refuse without being in the wrong, no matter the title, and that is my right. All the same, they may request that I refrain from using a certain title with them, and that is their right.

By all means, everyone act respectful to everyone else. There just needs to be an understanding of that "second tier" of titles that is reserved for an intimate agreement, and that using those without consent can really make people uncomfortable and unhappy.

Again, never assume consent in a public space, and always be aware of your own rights to consent and do not fear using them. Every time you let someone impose upon you without calling them on it, you allow the problem to grow.


P.S.: I know quite a few dommes who hate being called "Ma'am" or "Miss", so a safe rule of thumb would be to consider those titles to ask about. Very rarely does a well liked male submissive in our scene call a new person Ma'am without asking the lady first.

[Dan]

Graduate, it was this line that took me in your initial statement:

If you're a submissive, don't call a domme "Mistress" if she isn't your Mistress.

I would consider that being disrespectful to someone if that's the name they wish to be called by. Even though I'm under Miss Jay's control, I still address the other ladies in chat by their chosen names, eg Mistress D, Mistress Alex etc.
To say it is a more intimate form of address would ignore any form of context and I therefore don't think it's right to make such a generalised statement.

I would agree with your clarification however that there's no harm in asking them what they would prefer and going with that, it's basic politeness.

Whilst it may be your experience that some Domme's do not like being called Ma'am or Miss, my experience is quite the opposite, so again I think it's entirely dependant on context and the people involved.

Of course there should be no argument at all regarding consent for entering into any form of scenario whether it be physical or online. Implied consent however is applicable to basic formalities in all kinds of situations, and that's what I was getting at in my last post. When you visit a doctor, there is automatically implied consent that you wish to discuss your health with a professional (contrast to explicit consent which is required for intimate examinations). When you pay for items at a store, there is automatically implied consent that you are happy for the teller to ask you for money (contrast with explicit consent if they required all your bank details). And when you enter into a conversation in an online chatroom on milovana, you're implying consent that you agree with the basis of those practices (contrast to explicit consent to enter an intimate scenario with someone). Now if one of the major foundations of those practices is the role of power and respect then it would be polite to adhere to those. That doesn't mean you can let anyone tell you what to do if you're a sub, but I don't see any reason why respect to all Dom/mes should not be given at even a basic level, even if you decline to take part in anything with them, which is your right to do as an individual.

[TheGraduate]

Oh don't get me wrong, I do believe everyone should be polite to everyone from the get-go, and if a woman's "scene handle" includes the word "Mistress", then it's not presumptuous to call her that.

If she says "Hello, I am Mistress X" then by all means call her Mistress as a title without doublechecking.
If she says "Hello, I am Little Miss Jay", you'd do well to not assume you can just call her Mistress.

When I am at a dungeon party, munch, or other event, I do not use titles for anyone. It's a surprisingly casual environment, and unless there's a power dynamic between me and a person, I talk to them as I would an equal in the vanilla world. Politely, without assuming anything. Someone who defaults to using "Ma'am" and "Sir" for dom/mes is in the right, so long as they stop/change titles when asked by the person.

In most but not all cases, "Mistress" and "Master" are presumptuous and reserved for a power dynamic. Offline especially you don't see women calling themselves "Mistress ______" so much. Again, it's different in a chat room with people who use the title in their name.

As a friend of mine puts it, she does not want people she doesn't know treating her as if she has power over them, because that forces upon her a power dynamic, however subtle, that she did not consent to. If she's dismissive of it and it continues, it becomes harassment. Thankfully the offline scene is very self policing.

To reiterate: I advocate conscious politeness to all in the scene unless they've proven themselves not worth it, and even then it's usually better to just be curt and polite as you extricate yourself.

[neloangelo1227]

We are equals until I decide to kneel.