Incels? Porn? What do you think?

[book_guy]

Questions

Is porn bad for incels? For society? Does porn (along with, f.e., plenty of sexy advertisements for cologne and automobiles, or sexy non-porn non-nude show-off-shows on TikTok, etc.) contribute to an increase in prevalence of angry-young-men who devolve into members of the incel-movement? What's the relation between porn (such as at Milovana) and social-dating problems (such as among typically unhappy young males who might become members of a more radical incel community) and those males' overt mal-adjustment to those problems (such as among violet irrational incels)? Incel, porn, Milovana -- how to mix.

Apologia

Well, prompted by this-and-that, I feel the need for a discussion. It is almost-entirely off-topic for this particular sub-forum; nevertheless, this sub-forum seems to be one of the best congregations of people whose opinions would be most stimulating or useful (to me? to all of us?). And it all came about because of misunderstandings at this sub-forum. So this sub-forum is where I'm putting it.

Rationale

Recently some young fellow or other posted, here, something that amounted to an incel-manifesto. (I won't link it. It's just the catalyst for my own ideas, so its content is almost entirely moot. You can find it easily.) I found myself responding more in order to offer sympathy to someone who seemed distraught at the time, less in order to agree or disagree with him. He had mentioned me by user-name, so I felt some responsibility.

It got worse. Oddly (and, I felt, irrationally), I found myself castigated (mildly) by some respondents, a castigation based on my supposed sympathy with incel-manifesto language. I had no such sympathy. My single lone statement to that effect, the only thing I said that was even vaguely incel-style, was a statement indicating that I preferred to be physically attracted to my own dating partner(s). I find this requirement extremely reasonable, and a rather non-incel statement to make; but trolls (and perhaps some non-trolls) took me to task for stating it anyway, inferring (wrongly) that I meant something else. They made a false equation between saying (1) I care about having physical attraction to my partner, and (2) I only care about having physical attraction to my partner. Only? I care about her being smart; does that mean she can be drug-addled, addicted, violent, a criminal genius, and I'll love her solely for being smart? No. The word "only" was inserted into the statement by them, not by me. It's an idiotic equation to make: "she needs to look good to me" doesn't mean "and therefore I'll be fine with her being as stupid as a post as long as she looks good to me." But I find this wrong equation made quite often, out there in internet-land. And silly me for being surprised or annoyed by it. It's endemic to the medium, I should have expected it. Didn't see it coming, doh!, my bad. Now I want to discuss.

Repeat

So, to ask the question again, now within better context: what's Milovana's role in the incel crisis? Or even, first, is incel-dom a rising crisis? Or perhaps to the contrary, there's no crisis at all, since there have always been, and will always be, unhappy young men who don't get laid enough. If there is a crisis, then, is it caused by or exacerbated by or ameliorated by prevalence and availability of porn? Especially of cock-hero-style porn and porn-music-video-style porn and point-of-view-style porn and similar other easy-to-consume forms of video that do several things which butt up against the incel situation -- making the instructional content overt, thereby increasing the appearance that a partner is engaging in the act of pleasing the male consumer, for example.

Further, how might it impact me? These are types of porn I very much enjoy -- point-of-view, instructional, and heterosexual-without-kink, are my main preferences. Does this mean I'm more likely to become an incel of the angry-young-man sort? I'm in my 50s, it seems unlikely. I found Milovana in about 2010, when I was in my late 40s, so I already represent an outlier relative to most participants at Milovana, I'm guessing. And I'm strongly heterosexual, personally; and entirely (?!) male. How do these questions alter if we include different natural predilections, to ask about male homosexuals, about people who are non-binary, about females of any persuasion?

Discussion

I don't know why I need answers, but I've always been attracted to the community of people of an incel-type bent. I taught and coached for some time at junior-high and high-school level, where I found myself mentoring young boys as they grew into men. I felt this was a valid calling for me, a decent way to contribute to society. In these real-life experiences, I wasn't inundated by incel-manifesto-type behavior or language the way I would be inundated outside of real-life when I later began to access the internet. They aren't me, I'm not a typical incel, or so I hope.

Yet I'm angry at females, sometimes. Aren't we all? Generally my irrational involuntary anger gets directed at "the game" (or something else "systemic") for the manner in which it forces me to capitulate to something I don't want -- this sounds very incel-style, if I put it that way. I manage my anger appropriately, I realize it's irrational, I put it away where it probably belongs. I don't act out violent anti-female fantasies, and soon enough I'm not angry at females any more, unless they're MAGA-Trump supporters, or unless they agree with the latest SCotUS debacle, and my anger goes to something different for a while. I certainly don't think of myself as agreeing with the typical rants stated by some misogynist (to take the "incel" term entirely out of the equation, for worry over its inflammatory or miscommunicative potential). For examples, I like equal voting and property rights between the genders, I advocate in favor of equal pay for equal work, I generally prefer watching the USA's women's national soccer team more than the men's, I would want any wife or girlfriend to expect me to engage in roughly half of our house-work while she engaged in roughly half of our income potential, and so forth. I like to think I enable rather than disable females, relative to older traditional 19th-Century roles.

Yet I don't get laid often enough, and I hate the fact that it seems to me that women have controlled me all of my life by means of withholding sexual access. I wonder, don't they WANT to fuck simply for the sake of fucking? I've sadly learned, no, there's been no woman whom I've ever dated who actually liked fucking for the sake of fucking. A few have promised, after long angst-ridden discussion, to initiate sex more often than they had done in the past. None have ever fulfilled that promise. I have never broken up with anyone for failing to initiate sex with me, but I have broken up with someone on the basis of the fact that she didn't keep promises. So, in some ways I may once have been a potential-incel but now find simply that I've grown out of resembling an angry incel with a manifesto. But that's probably only because I've grown out of wanting sex regularly. Or I've learned to masturbate more effectively?

Or ... I've never been an incel in the first place? I had some dating-friendly characteristics when I was of the dating-pool age, I did fine. I wasn't extremely frustrated, just a little bit frustrated. Still means I wasn't getting enough ... So, should I stop watching porn? Does watching it make me expect more sexual access then I'm getting? Whether or not I have a right to that access, do I start thinking I should have a right to it? How much access is the right amount of access?

You tell me. This is a fraught topic. I don't expect answers, only greater elucidation of the questions. I'm as angry at women as I am at employers -- they don't give me back enough, in exchange for what I give to them, and I feel that the system is so skewed that I have no choice but to continue to try to give and give even though I'm desperate to get more, and I'm unable to cajole finagle or force the system to actually do that reciprocation. It's the reciprocation that's missing. So I abandon trying to work within that system. By choice. This means I'm a volcel, I guess?

Anyway

BTW, here's a good summary of the history of the incel phenomenon, from potentially noble and helpful beginnings (much founded by a woman! surprise ...) through to the acting out of anti-female mass murders : https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/ ... ion-reddit .

Well, I'm glad I wrote this up. Not that I solved anything, but, a few of you have had some nice personal-message interactions with me that led up to a jumping-off point but then faded away. I brought them to the brink, then nothing. Tease. This might be the payoff? Do I owe you a payoff at all? Your job now is to finish it.

[smutreader]

As hypocritical as it sounds since I am an active member of this forum, yes, I think porn as a whole is bad for society. I think men (and women) have become oversexualized to the point where a few things can happen

1. They aren't forced to develop the social skills required to attract a woman because they can go jerk off to porn.

2. They enter relationships with unrealistic expectations of frequency, quality, and even normal sexual behavior.

3. They develop sexual dysfunction due to self-overstimulation to the point that they can't perform sexually in a normal sexual relationship.

4. They develop unhealthy attractions that are not conducive to building and maintaining strong quality relationships (porn viewing can lead to desires to experiment outside of the relationship which most people can't make work).

The reality is we our built with a need to be loved. Love is essential for health. So many studies have shown that love, stable relationships lead to a higher quality of life. Porn is often destructive to that, especially if viewed by someone by his or herself.

Political musings of a conservative lean coming next. Do not click if you don't want to be triggered.

Spoiler: show

Our society has become oversexualized. Since your initial post got a little bit political, I'll wade in there a bit too. Many have reached the point where they think it's okay to snuff out a non-life-endangering human created through consensual sexual intercourse because that life is unwanted. Imagine that. People demand the right to kill a child created through sex because its not wanted. In my mind, it's like demanding the right not to get hooked on coke after you snorted it. The prevalence of porn has to be counted as a part of that.

As for Milovana's role in it?

Eh. It's just splicing porn to music and a beat with a decent story sometimes.

[doremi]

I think it's a serious lack of education, and the influence of religions to maintain this darkness of the mind.

[book_guy]

Thanks for your thoughts, smutreader. So, we're both mildly hypocritical, to participate here at Milovana, a porn forum, while perhaps claiming porn is a social ill which in turn perhaps ought to be avoided.

I'm kind-of OK going down that road, the idea that porn contributes to these types of dysfunction. It's a chicken-and-egg discussion, in some ways -- which came first, (1) dissolution of social relationships and erosion of interpersonal skills, or (2) prevalence of sexual imagery -- but the fact that the two somehow contribute to one another is probably a fair assertion. Imagine a world in which internet porn didn't exist, and then consider the young horny men, potential incels: would they be less driven to frustration and anger? Would they rape more? Would female "wiles" control them more, to even worse, even unhappier lives of economic subservience to a single well-paid consort (the term we currently use for that well-paid consort is, "wife")? Or would things not go that way, and is that description ("economic subservience") a deliberately slanted expression derived of incel propaganda in the first place?

Yet limiting porn brings up plenty of other questions -- free press and freedom of expression; driving it underground instead of beneficial regulation and taxation; etc.. Prohibitiveness and legal prohibition itself seldom work, and often indicate more that's worse about the society than does total licentiousness. Rise of technologies, too -- before the photograph was invented, there was no porn photography, but there were sexy depictions of nude females, often created strictly for heterosexual male consumption, and yet now those same images are often related more closely to church religious iconography. "Eve," after all, was designed as a companion for "Adam" ...

And, to put some oil on the potentially troubled waters, I'm also going to do my best to stick with you on the political subject that you've discussed in your spoiler, but I hope it doesn't derail this discussion. My thoughts on that subject alone, in my own spoiler --

Spoiler: show

Indeed, if you think it's a human life, then yes, you're probably entirely correct to imply, that aborting a foetus is a horror. But I personally don't think of a foetus as a valid human life. Whether it is, or not, is a question that probably can't be resolved easily, and certainly not here, so I'd just ask that we agree to disagree. I'm sure you can understand the following: given (a) I don't assume the foetus is a valid human being, therefore it makes sense to me that (b) choosing its rights instead of the mother's rights is a silly thing to choose, given all of the obvious implications of bodily autonomy and governmental control and over-reach. Just as I'm doing my best to understand, about what you imply is your opinion: given (a) you do assume the foetus is a valid human being, therefore it also makes sense to you that (b) choosing to kill it is a silly thing to choose. Makes sense to me. We just don't share the same initial assumption.

Yours in agree-to-disagree-ment :)

And, to doremi, neat trick, turning the tables like that, you . Lack of education? I have major educational achievements, personally, yet I feel some kinship with the incel world-view, as I've already attested. They're often smart people, aren't they? Many write with compound-complex sentences and string together rather complex (though, I think, generally wrong) arguments. Maybe it's lack of a certain type of education. Too much Engineering, not enough Humanities?

Mildly sarcastic: Is this a paean for the Liberal Arts? I'd be with you on that subject! Comparative Religion foremost among them ... let's all leave babies on the hillside. Oedipus is, after all, simply a failed abortion, a child left to the wolves whom a shepherd saved from the same; yet look at all the trouble he wreaked. End of sarcasm. Just kidding. Sort of.

[BBBeanie]

Mhmm an interesting discussion to be sure

Here are my thoughts

I think porn, like all things are bad for society when overused. Being addicted to anything can be a huge problem. Porn in particular can be dangerous once addicted. It not only affects you psychologically it can affect your mental state. And depending on the type of porn you consume it can change your perception of reality. I think porn can be used moderately with little to no immediate consequences. It can be helpful in exploring certain fetishes an niches, but once addicted it’s hard to curb it.

I think those who are addicted to porn can have a hard time discerning from porn and real life situations, this can lead to expectations of sexual interactions leading to disappointment and resentment. And when enough of that is built up, it can lead to incel like behavior and beliefs.

I appreciate you bringing in your own experience into the issue. It seems you haven’t found a partner that gives you the same energy into the relationship as you do and it sounds frustrating. But I encourage you not to stop searching, don’t give up on finding that person who not only can reciprocate that energy but amplify each other’s energy’s. When you do find that person, and you will, things will be feel night and day difference.

[RandomName]

I'm a fan of psychology, although not at actual student of the topic at a proper institution, I none the less have done a decent bit of research into the topic of porns effect on the mind. So, here's my two cents.

Q 1. Does porn result in more "incels"?

A 1. Maybe? But probably not. You see, since porn really isn't that old, it's hard to tell. We can't really compare it to pre-porn groups, and comparing to groups that don't use porn is kind of difficult for reasons I'll explain later. I find it hard to believe that porn results in more incels, but this isn't exactly something that we as a society know whether or not is true. In my opinion, I'd say probably not, but possible.

Q 2. Is porn bad for the mind?

A 2. Yes and no. Porn is like a lot of different things, it's perfectly fine in moderation. Surveys done have shown that people who use excessive amounts of porn (excessive was defined by the porn user, not the survey creator.) have more severe symptoms of depression and anxiety.

Q 3. Does porn raise sexual expectations?

A 3. Yes. It does. While it's worth noting that some people are (for the most part) capable of rationalizing the difference between porn and reality resulting in then knowing that they shouldn't hold their partners to the expectations of porn. People who can rationalize to the level of not only understanding but acting on this understanding are uncommon. One example of porn raising sexual expectations is anal sex. Men who watch a lot of porn are much more likely to expect their partner to be okay with trying anal sex, after all, all the girls in porn try it, why shouldn't their girlfriend, right?

Q 4. Do Women have more sexual control?

Q 4. Yes, but I wouldn't say blaming them is fair by any means. It's basically primal for men to "hunt" and women to choose. However, ignoring the primal part, society also plays a roll here. Because men are typically less choosy with partners, it makes it easier for a woman to he chosen. As they are chosen easier, they are allowed to be more choosy. Think of it like getting sports scholarships. If you only get one or two, and they're from your least favorites, sure, you can get on a team, but, you might really not want to go to those schools for some reasons. Where as, in this analogy, a woman would get offers from most universities, allowing them to choose from much more, and there for, go with the best.

Q 5. Does milovana play a role in Incel stuffs?

A 5. I mean, maybe? I really dont know this community well enough to speak greatly, but ultimately, while I would argue that it can worsen porn addiction (speaking from experience) I would state that it's not exactly going to result in more incels. Addressing more topics will result in people who have watched a lot of porn being drawn here as they have been affected by desensitization and seek something new, but does this make them an incel? People with depression are much more susceptible to porn addiction (in theory), so would this make them incels?

Q 6. Is your rationale wrong?

A. Not really? But kind of? Getting upset at people for twisting your words and using them against you is completely justified. Word twisting is so fucking awful. But it's important to remember that those people are not the majority. The vocal minority is often louder than the majority which is the main problem here. You have expectations, you want to be attracted to your partner AND you want her to have strong personality qualities? That's called being a logical human. Radicals will always hate on you if you mention that looks are even the tiniest bit important, and they will happily twist your words to do so.

Point 7.
I mean, so like, your points of women deciding if sex happens and using that to be controlling... anyone ANYONE who uses sex to control another is a shitty person and not worth your time. Of course, not having an active sex drive is not the same as using it as a manipulation tool.

Q 8. Do women want to fuck for the sake of fucking

A. Yes! And no.Women typically have lower sex drives than men, as well, while looks still matter to then, personality and the such affect arousal more for women that men. If you meet a random woman, the odds are that she'll want to get to know you better before fucking, and will not want to have sex as much. Something worth noting, is that doing the same sex acts, will result in less sex over time. Your relationship outside the bedroom getting less intimate, will result in less sex over time. Her not getting off, will result in less sex over time. If she doesn't get sexual pleasure from sex, or she feels like you care less about her out of the bedroom, or you're just doing the same thing time and time again, she will likely start to decrease in interest. It's also important to remember, that just because they don't want to have it as much as you, doesn't mean that they aren't enjoying sex for the sake of sex.

Q 9. Are you an incel?

A. Well, maybe? I would say no. Really, it's worth noting that you may share some opinions with incels, that doesn't mean you are one. From what I see, you get angry at women for their control of sex. This is definitely incel-like. So, I would recommend trying to understand the other side better. Getting annoyed at having little control of the situation makes sense, it is perfectly fair, but try not to get angry about it. That line is what changes it from a disgruntled opinion of a person, to an incel ideal.

This is my two cents on the topic :)

[Helequin]

Okay, some interesting thoughts raised here and thought it was well worth a reply. I'm going to come at this from a significantly different angle. From some of the things you've referenced in the last posts, I'm assuming you are coming at this with a US, or at least NA view, so I will speak to that a bit. Really, it will hold for most of the west anyway.

I will start with a question - what do you think actually contributes to more angry, confused and frustrated young men not knowing how to conduct themselves sexually: pictures and video of sexual activity or a society which has pressed all things sexual (or at least too sexual) into an area of general taboo where we don't openly talk about it, are ashamed we take part in it and may even stigmatize those who are open about it?

On one hand yes, mainstream porn delivers lots of explicit sexual imagery. It's sex with a Hollywood gloss in the same way Hollywood takes on all other subjects (think action hero movies and all the other over the top, but fun stuff they come up with). Of course it's unrealistic.

But not many people expect James Bond (or whatever) to be a realistic representation of the real world. In part, that's because it's not sold as realistic. In part because we can freely talk about and discuss it with pretty much anyone we talk to regularly. Hollywood movies and the enjoyment we get from them is in part social, viewing them with others, talking about them after and so on. I don't need to be an international spy to realize James Bond is not realistic, because all this interaction with others and discussion gives me context.

Porn on the other hand, we tend to go shut ourselves in, watch it alone and tell no one we did so later. In western culture, largely developed from European, Christian values, we're taught that is the only acceptable way to do it (if at all).

Another thought here. If you live in a place with a active kink community and are into it, I would highly recommend going out and actually meeting people at a munch (casual meet up event) or something. No need to look for a partner or any of that, it can be an entirely social experience. Of course, every community has people who can be belligerent. But that aside my experience with meeting people in the kink community is those "hyper sexualized" people who spend far too much time on sex in their lives are open, well-balanced great people to be around. They often take much more care to ensure they have a partner's consent (even for mundane sex) and keep safety and well-being in mind. Why? Because they've had a chance to be open and learn about all this stuff. They've been able to be open about, enjoy sex, discuss it with others and not be labelled or looked down on for it.

Every woman I've had the pleasure to be highly intimate with has absolutely been into having sex for the sake of sex. Individuals will always have their preferences of course, and some people just are not very sexual. In general though, women enjoy sex. They can get incredible pleasure from both physical and mental stimulation just like men can. But, if we go back to that history of European, Christian values women have been taught that they should not enjoy sex. If they do they're a "slut," or other such nonsense. And no matter how good something feels physically, it's difficult to enjoy if you are feeling guilty or awkward about it. The women I've been with were lucky enough to realize they could be open and just enjoy themselves.

So, we have this value structure which broadly stigmatizes sexuality and limits any social interaction or learning about it. These values compete with sex being a natural, evolutionary drive which doesn't slowly kill us (like other vices might) and feels fucking amazing ensuring most of us are going to strongly desire it. Put those two together and is it really any wonder at all that there are people frustrated to the point of anger and lashing out?

Porn is not the problem. Porn has existed in some form or another basically as long as people have been organized enough to create it. And why wouldn't it? Sex is a natural and biologically driven desire we are all subject to. Even Victorian era England, pretty famously 'proper', published loads of absolutely raunchy novels. They are not hard to find. And no, BDSM is not a modern invention.

How people are consuming porn, they're lack of ability to separate it from reality and it being one of the only places people can go to get some sort of sexual interaction other than an intimate partner is however, absolutely a symptom of the problem. IMHO, the main problem is that we stigmatize, discriminate and treat other people differently because of their sexual habits. We press any discussion which could help people learn about sexuality to the side and the shadows, then wonder why there is a community of angry, confused people in those shadows. On so many levels it's absurd.

Adding to all this, mainstream porn does have a problem with portrayal. It is too often shallow, focused entirely on the woman being an object or fuck sleeve with no real intimacy or care shown, and no context given to explain this arrangement as just part of the fantasy. And we sideline any social interaction which could provide that context.

Now, in terms of the 'game' or getting female romantic attention there are aspects of this which irk me. Of course there are. We've all known that guy who is a complete asshat and probably abusive but always has a woman on his arm. We've all know those guys who would be incredible partners and it feels like no woman will ever give him a shot. There's a whole bunch of stuff that leads to these feelings (among them us all being clueless in our teens and early 20s) and I don't want to get into it. But this can also push some young men to being more belligerent towards women for the simple reason of they see it 'working.' Working may not mean long term lasting relationships, but they probably aren't thinking that far ahead.

[spaisin]

Heh, this turned out long and rambly and I didn't even touch on milovana or porn; I probably should do you all a favor and not click 'post', but, well; you've been warned and should be equipped with the ability to skip it:


"Incel" ... that's like "fat". You're going between implying it is wrong and trying not to. It is not wrong. Separate the 'abusive idiots' from the 'sad loners' in your mind. Might take some work, but it is imperative; one doesn't lead to the other.

"Fat activists" are trying to make people fat; it's a thing, a wrong thing. A lot of them may just be completely misguided, merely trying to make people less depressed; but a whole lot take it to places where gaining weight is actively celebrated - doesn't really matter the intent, if the result is diabetes and a general inability to live a life.

"Incel" is just "fat". If you're frustrated by your situation and taking the anger out on innocent people around you, you're an abusive idiot. The incelness has nothing to do with it.



"Yet I'm angry at females, sometimes. Aren't we all?"
To be honest, I'm not. That group is way too large to blame for anything; there's plenty of rotten individuals, but there's nothing forcing me to interact with any. The society may have set "the game" into a ridiculous state, but that doesn't mean I should be resentful towards the woman who decided to not abort me - against the pressures of the society at the time. Or towards the other, now adult, human females that she went on to give birth to. Or anyone else for that matter...

"and I hate the fact that it seems to me that women have controlled me all of my life by means of withholding sexual access."
Why are you playing those games? They can Try to control you all they like, but you don't have to submit to any control. Your actions are on you.

"A few have promised, after long angst-ridden discussion, to initiate sex more often than they had done in the past. None have ever fulfilled that promise."
You're male. You're the one responsible. Not at initiating sex, at everything. The societal expectation that you should be responsible for such things seems unfair, sure; but that expectation is actually a boon. Simply because it lines up with reality; nothing will happen if someone doesn't do it. The fact that society expects any less of women is an active hindrance to women; men are operating at the "norm". Embrace it.



"Does watching it make me expect more sexual access then I'm getting?"
Does watching ice hockey make me expect more goal access than I'm getting.. the whole concept of "sexual access" is nonsensical. Pay a pro if that's what you want. It's not the same? Good, you might be sane. You shouldn't aim for sexual access, you should aim for a partner-in-life.. someone to share the struggles of life with. If good sex happens along the way, all the merrier. Now, I've grown to be mostly stable alone (my place may be a mess, but it's my mess alone, so, so what.. my mood is fine and my cooking is sufficient to avoid food poisoning) - and I'm old enough not to expect to be starting a happy family. I wouldn't mind one, but it wouldn't "fix me" in any significant way. That's to say, I get that my lessened caring about pure sex is due to 'maturity' and happenstance; but "sexual access" just sounds cringeworthy

"Or ... I've never been an incel in the first place?"
You haven't decided what "an incel" is; and you haven't even started considering if it is a useful category, or why. So it's kinda hard to decide if you are one, or even if you should. Are incels violent? Are you? Does that mean you are or aren't one. Is it more important than your violent tendencies, or should you figure those out first? I'm not blaming you of* being violent; I'm merely pointing out that the constituent parts of the definition for "incel" are way more significant than the term itself, and as such, the term pretty much fails.



Vox article... sigh. If it bleeds, it leads; if it doesn't, stab it until it does. Don't base your identity on random attack articles on the internet. The term is quarter your age and now you're letting a random blog post define you because it manages to conflate "alone and sad" with "misogynistic mass shootings"?

The term means "involuntarily celibate". The WHO considers people who are childless against their will disabled ... would you stop picking on the disabled?
https://archive.ph/kiwuQ
Don't get me wrong, I don't think WHO actually did nor are about to.. but since we're reading the web and defining ourselves by random articles, I figured, why not...

*EDIT: significant difference between 'for' and 'of' ... "for" could be correct but would require a bit more .. context

[noblepaladin]

I think porn is an easy scapegoat. Sure, overconsumption of porn isn't healthy, but it's a multi-factorial problem. I knew a bunch of people who ruined their lives because they couldn't stop playing World of Warcraft. A lot of people get stuck watching Netflix or doing other "more acceptable" things online for countless hours and it interferes with their studies, work, and normal social life. I don't actually know a porn or sex addict.

Very few people are actually stuck jerking off non-stop at home. They might watch a lot of porn, and then switch over to Netflix, video games, social media, or other stuff. But not many people are actually busting their nut several times a day because they cannot stop and they are just furiously masturbating for many hours each day.

And there is just a general deterioration of physical health. Obesity numbers have been continuing to skyrocket because of the easy access to hyperpalatable food and lack of exercise. Despite all the modern conveniences, nobody seems to get enough sleep. With "work from home" from the pandemic, I thought all my co-workers would get 8+ hours of sleep because they get to skip the commute, but most seem to find more ways to waste time rather than sleep. If people treat their bodies like trash, they won't have the energy or willpower to go out and socialize.

I think the main levers to attack this problem is to fix people's physical health and then figure out ways to control the "infinite time sinks" that technology has made available. Porn is only one of them. If someone quits porn, but just spends the time on video games instead, it isn't going to fix things.

Everybody brushes their teeth even though it is not the most fun thing to do, because they know they need to do it. And everybody knows that in the short run, you would feel far better if you do ecstacy or heroin. But most people understand that it is bad and avoid it. People just need to figure out how to deal with "life in the real world" the same way. Social interactions are not always going to be fun, a lot of times it is going to suck. A lot of "incels" think that if they were attractive, then suddenly they would be popular, have a lot of friends, and have a lot of women. No, social relationships take effort, and that effort isn't always fun. I don't think porn is the main problem, it is just one of many many problems that technology has brought to the palm of our hands.

[A Ghoul Editor]

Porn has always been a celebration of Life embraced by all vibrant and healthy civilizations. It is the current state of affairs which is aberrant!

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It's only very recently, in the 4th century CE, that pornographic art has been systematically destroyed and suppressed in Europe and later in the Middle East by crude religious fanatics, rebelling against thousands of years of civilization. All across the Greek and Roman world, surviving literature points to a confident embrace of human sexuality in all aspects of life, to a degree that would make even a 21st century self-described "liberal" visibly uncomfortable. The most glaring proof of this past reality survived the destruction thanks to the merciful embrace of volcanic ash for over 1,500 years. Catherine Nixey writes in her book "The Darkening Age":

Pompeii was a revelation. In some ways, it shouldn’t have been. For those willing and able to read it, Latin literature had contained numerous hints that all in the pre-Christian world was not as chaste as St Basil might have liked. The infamous ‘Carmen 16’ of Catullus was an obvious one. Few could read the line ‘I will bugger you and I will fuck your mouths’ and think that the author was being chastely pure – but then few could read it. By the time Pompeii was rediscovered, Latin had become an increasingly rare accomplishment.

By contrast, anyone with eyes could see the images that were being pulled from the Pompeian soil. No one could begin to pretend that the god Pan was doing anything other than entering the goat; or that the people in those frescoes were doing anything other than having enthusiastic sex. Even more disquieting, these paintings couldn’t be dismissed as the reprehensible habits of the poor, the immoral or the uneducated, as these images were not just found in brothels; they were found everywhere, even – especially – in some of the most opulent villas in the town. The Pompeians had not simply put up images of naked people; they had done so openly and without shame. No one in these images was struggling to hide their modesty with their hands or with fig leaves.

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Yes, there were many such frescoes adorning the walls of houses in Pompeii, unmistakably showing kinky fucking!

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And that statue of "Pan entering the goat" that Nixey mentions? I would probably be too spicy even for this forum, if it wasn't in the context of studying history.

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Here's the Roman God Priapus. Romans worshiped his massive dick as a symbol of rustic fertility.

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And what about all the "fertility" or "love" Goddess statues from all around the world, from civilizations who never even came in contact with each other?
Why do all these Goddesses of our distant ancestors share the unrealistic, exaggerated proportions of contemporary sex dolls and anime waifus?

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What does it say about our modern, enlightened, progressive, advanced civilization that worshiping a personification of an ideal female form is considered at best to be a weird fetish or even a sign of degeneracy?

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It is not porn which is degenerate.

It is our rejection of porn which is the true degeneracy!

My holy mission, my jihad as A Ghoul Editor, is to redeem our fallen civilization from this Dark Age, with the cleansing light of stunning pornography.

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[edger477]

Some great content in this thread, that I definitely have to come back to read in entirety.

It is hard to add much to the conversation without repeating, I agree with most points from spaisin, also from others but I need to re-read all of it with full attention.

What I will write comes from married person, with kid, and who had many years to work on improvements to life (family life and sex life). I come here to consume some of creative content (teases, especially estim ones) and for threads like this (which are rare). First because our lifestyle involves one of us traveling to other country for maintaining our properties for 3-4 weeks at a time, so during that time (2nd week) I indulge in consuming some porn. Normally I abstain from it for at least last week because too much dopamine burns your receptors and therefore reduces pleasure you feel from normal sex (that is the reason why it causes addiction, and why is escalating, you always need more extreme content to compensate for less receptors). The process is not irreversible so when you have less stimulating experiences, your brain grows more receptors and you can enjoy normal pleasurable experiences again. One of reasons I deleted facebook and instagram few years ago, especially instagram was constantly full of almost-naked women. I want to enjoy time with my wife more than what I enjoy anything else, and for her to feel as loved and worshipped as possible.

I think constant porn consumption is just one aspect of the bigger problem modern young males are facing. There are several more:
- eating junk food (more than twice a month is already too much)
- not being physically active
- believing masculinity is toxic
- playing video games for adventure

When you add porn (addiction) to this, you get people who will be fully emasculated and there is nothing they can offer to a potential partner. Jerking off constantly drops your energy and testosterone levels, making you less assertive (so less attractive to feminine side), but not less prone to violence (actually you could argue you become more violent because high testosterone helps with willpower and discipline), so worse in every aspect.

Thanks to tinder & co women who want to have just sex for fun can get it from best looking man on the app and if you are not that one you can't depend on this app so you can forget it. Not that having that one-night-stand every now and then (even every week) would make you happy, or them. Whole "access to sex" mindset is wrong, because it is based on premise that just having sex will make you happy. It is having a partner who shares life with you and balances you that increases happiness.
Having someone supporting you reduces stress and that will make you happier on itself. Of course it is 2-way street and support, trust and safety that relationship provides for both partners is what makes it worthwhile. Sex is just a cherry on top, and its quality in the long run will correlate to the quality of relation you have. When you want to be together with someone just to be together and realize it is that time that you enjoy, not sex per se, it is then when sex becomes experience that cannot be replaced by casual sex or porn.

If you don't have partner, don't fuss about it. Invest your energy into yourself. Make goals, live healthier, reduce consumption of things that cause dopamine spikes and get them from exercising or accomplishing goals. Start a business... Invest your time and energy into increasing your own value. The more positive things you do for yourself, and others, the more positive energy you will radiate and attract.

[forbiddendesire]

What I will write comes from married person, with kid, and who had many years to work on improvements to life (family life and sex life). I come here to consume some of creative content (teases, especially estim ones) and for threads like this (which are rare). First because our lifestyle involves one of us traveling to other country for maintaining our properties for 3-4 weeks at a time, so during that time (2nd week) I indulge in consuming some porn. Normally I abstain from it for at least last week because too much dopamine burns your receptors and therefore reduces pleasure you feel from normal sex (that is the reason why it causes addiction, and why is escalating, you always need more extreme content to compensate for less receptors). The process is not irreversible so when you have less stimulating experiences, your brain grows more receptors and you can enjoy normal pleasurable experiences again. One of reasons I deleted facebook and instagram few years ago, especially instagram was constantly full of almost-naked women. I want to enjoy time with my wife more than what I enjoy anything else, and for her to feel as loved and worshipped as possible.

I think constant porn consumption is just one aspect of the bigger problem modern young males are facing. There are several more:
- eating junk food (more than twice a month is already too much)
- not being physically active
- believing masculinity is toxic
- playing video games for adventure

When you add porn (addiction) to this, you get people who will be fully emasculated and there is nothing they can offer to a potential partner. Jerking off constantly drops your energy and testosterone levels, making you less assertive (so less attractive to feminine side), but not less prone to violence (actually you could argue you become more violent because high testosterone helps with willpower and discipline), so worse in every aspect.

Thanks to tinder & co women who want to have just sex for fun can get it from best looking man on the app and if you are not that one you can't depend on this app so you can forget it. Not that having that one-night-stand every now and then (even every week) would make you happy, or them. Whole "access to sex" mindset is wrong, because it is based on premise that just having sex will make you happy. It is having a partner who shares life with you and balances you that increases happiness.
Having someone supporting you reduces stress and that will make you happier on itself. Of course it is 2-way street and support, trust and safety that relationship provides for both partners is what makes it worthwhile. Sex is just a cherry on top, and its quality in the long run will correlate to the quality of relation you have. When you want to be together with someone just to be together and realize it is that time that you enjoy, not sex per se, it is then when sex becomes experience that cannot be replaced by casual sex or porn.

In general I agree with this. In my own estimation I have an addiction to porn, which I think has contributed to my losing interest in actual sex (other factors can include me becoming overweight, not enough activity, being at home all the time due to COVID (althouh I love being at home lol)), as it's easier and more fun to watch porn and relax than actually have sex. I have also suffered from erectile dysfunction the last few times I actually tried sex with my partner. As such recently I've been trying to reduce my consumption from every day to atleast every other day, eventually I would like to only watch it 1-2 times per week. If I could also reduce the extremity of my fetishes that would be great. I am very lucky that I have a long term partner and I think if I didn't I would probably become an incel, or maybe even a volcel because I think porn might satisfy my sexual needs. In such a case I would mostly be looking for a purely emotional, asexual relationship with a woman. Maybe it's different because I've been with my partner so long, maybe if I were looking for a new partner I would want sexual intimacy as well, but based on how I feel now I think I only want/need the emotional connection. But it would be difficult to find a partner who is both attractive, compatible in the most important ways, and is also okay with my lack of sex drive, which would make me an incel. Or else I would become a cuckold and find a woman for emotional intimacy and allow her to pursue her sexual needs elsewhere, but I think that might cause feelings of jealousy for me and confusion on the woman's part and be a very complicated situation

[DeanMoriarty]

edited because I forgot how to use forums and double posted

[DeanMoriarty]

Hey everyone!

Long time lurker, first time poster (ten years, if I remember correctly).

I really liked reading this thread and it reminded me why I actually like milovana and am glad Cock Hero emerged and stayed here instead of much more popular message boards or forums. Its a nerdy sensibility that most here have in common.

Now, after over 10 years (again, if I remember correctly, I guess as soon as I see my own post I'll know), I'll actually feel like contributing.

I guess this question by book_guy is at the heart of the matter:
Does porn (along with, f.e., plenty of sexy advertisements for cologne and automobiles, or sexy non-porn non-nude show-off-shows on TikTok, etc.) contribute to an increase in prevalence of angry-young-men who devolve into members of the incel-movement?

Focussed slightly, this becomes: Does a hypersexualized and ubiquitous media make young males more frustrated?
I answer: Yes, it does. But I wouldn't want this to be understood as a value statement. Let me follow up with some observations which necessarily include some generalizations, so please ignore this sentence if you plan to nail me on those ;) . Also, I aim to be analytic first, judgmental second. And I am totally omitting a female POV here. It is already way too long as it is.

Premise I
Sexuality, even if absent for whatever reason and especially if repressed, is an important part of every individuals identity. Because as a species we reproduce sexually it is a core program of the human animal, interwoven into the fabric of our being.

Premise II
Humans and their behaviors are inherently social. No matter how their behavior is in alignment, ignorance or opposition to current social norms, every human behaves in relation to other humans behavior, only in this context can we even ascribe meaning and intent to individual behavior.

So far so good. Now lets get away from trueisms and get to the meaty (ie verbose) bit:

Hypothesis I
Sexualized advertising, body-accentuating fashion and pornography work because large numbers of humans respond to them positively. In many contexts western representations of sexuality in the media are intended for entertainment and produced for profit (!). Every media produced for consumption and profit tries to adapt to the tastes of its intended audience - but all humans discover the larger world through representations of it in the mass media as well. The athlete-rapper industrial complex sells and pushes an image equating sexual desireability and ubiquitous sexual gratification as the primary factor that decides social success. Not because they think so or want it to be so, but because it sells! Thus they further reinforce a cycle that creates less realistic conceptions of sexuality than in times when there were way less media representations of it - because humans had a much smaller idea of the world, but relied more on their immediate social surroundings. They knew less about sex, but they might have had more of it, ironically. As you can see in every puritanical society: sex happens anyways.

Hypothesis II
The process of sexual selection has always been adjacent to various dimensions of social power, sometimes even being a direct function of them. From a males perspective the 'sexual game' is primarily competition with other males over rights for sexual reproduction with females, and secondarily a contest to prove an eligible partner towards women. Incels are just the most modern representation of men who see themselves as losers in this game - and often by extension losers in all other games as well, even if they are often at the top of the social ladder in economic terms (from a global perspective). Such groups (privileged in most dimensions of social inequality but feeling very disadvantaged in one or two) are often experiencing higher perceived frustration than groups faring worse in almost all of them. Just like in a revolutionary context its not those who have nothing to lose that have the best potential to grasp for power, its those that both think they uniquely deserve it and feel its just one last grasp away who are the ones most motivated to rise up.

Conclusion
This explains the general phenomenon of the angry, young, western, white male: privileged by birth even if born in a trailer park, yet feeling treated incredibly unjust. The women, the coloreds, non-heteronormatives: everyone gets treated preferentially but them! It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. These men truly suffer in their mind, and some of them put others through much more horrible and unforgiveable suffering because of it. Their attitudes towards sexuality are just one expression of the frustration that comes with a society that sends them mixed messages about their position within it and their moral desert. In my view these things are inseparably connected, a direct result of perceived social power structures. Which is also why this is such a strong theme in BDSM roleplay scenarios.

tldr; Porn helps to create frustrated males because it creates wrong expectations in regards to what they feel they deserve.

The question whether or not porn is good or bad is not helpful in my opinion. Porn is unavoidable in our current society, and as others have pointed out, in most societies that we know of. It is ultimately how we consume it that matters most. Adaptive and resilient personalities can safely engage in behavior that in other contexts contribute to social problems. The degree in which a society trusts the individuals to judge the extent in which they can safely engage in them determines the scope of individual liberties within it.

And finally: no book-guy, the fact that you reflect upon yourself like this already sets you miles apart from any incel activist. Sexual frustration is a part of the male condition - at least to a certain extent.
Thank you for your years of contribution to the community!

[spaisin]

Hmm.. I'm not entirely sure how the logic at your conclusion is supposed to work. (@DeanMoriarty - welcome to the active side of the forum btw)
I follow your hypotheses, agree with the first for the significant parts; but you lose me at half way through the second.

The added "from a global perspective" is not a way anyone sees themselves. The fact that someone lives on a lesser daily dollar value in the mountains of Chile means absolutely nothing to a person's self-perception. And it shouldn't, they're in no way in a competition over anything.

As you carry on into bringing in the oppression stack; none of that matters either. If you're actually suffering from being trailer-trash-poor, you have bigger problems than some liberal type judging you for your skin color. The poor oppressed black womxn on the TV, spouting nonsense in a suit one can't afford with their yearly salary.. it's an average joke. Worth a grim chuckle, not any more.

They just don't see themselves as privileged in any of those ways. All the "non-oppression-features" are just "the norm". If you recognize yourself as the norm in some form, that doesn't invoke feelings of entitlement, that just makes you average.

As I assume the above; I end up in a bit of a contradiction with your "they're feeling entitled because everything except this one thing is going for them".

I'll offer an alternative explanation; the worst elements of the "incel culture" are actually insane. Most of incels are just depressed normies, but the few who make it to the news are just clinically insane.

I haven't studied any related events too much, but I have ran into the story of "The Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger". Seemed like a textbook example of a completely unhinged narcissist. That "supreme gentleman" was a way he referred to himself. (If you see someone using it now, like in the vox piece above, I'd bet it to be sarcastic/trolling. Although, Minassian's use of it sounds a little.. insane.) Elliot also was a college student, so not exactly suffering; and he referred to his mixed race as a problem, so, suffering from the victim mentality so graciously offered by progressive types, not from perceived white privilege... Entitled poor trailer trash? Doesn't seem like a match.