Transphobic Slurs

[seraph0x]

I'm going to unlock this thread because I want to give an "official" position on behalf of the site and give folks a chance to respond.

First off, thank you eerie_ellie for raising the issue. I'm sure you are speaking for many other Milovanians who had the same experience but it takes a lot of compassion and fortitude to speak up and help us ignoramuses. I personally didn't realize this term had a derogatory connotation and am glad I learned something.

The question is what shall we do now?

Another possible small fix is to convert any webtease tags of 'shemale' to trans. This won't change the webtease title or content at all, but will at least make the 'official' tag something more neutral in tone. Not sure how feasible this is however.

Done. Very easy change.

Now on to the subject of moderating titles and tease descriptions.

Milovana is an adult site dealing with sexuality and many edgy topics, so almost all content on this site would be offensive or triggering to many people. The very premise of the site is that we want to explore the entire gamut of emotions. There are teases specifically designed to inflict pain - physically or verbally - and coarse language is used precisely because it triggers strong emotions.

So how do we allow authors to continue to push our boundaries while also minimizing harm from when these triggers misfire?

Unfortunately, I think whether a given use of an emotionally charged term is welcome, sexy humiliation or an unwelcome turn-off is largely contextual and subjective. There are some particularly egregious cases that we have acted upon in the past but other than that I haven't been able to devise a simple, objective set of rules that would work reasonably well for most cases. And erring on the side of caution isn't an option. Deleting or removing a tease is very disruptive and traumatizing for the authors who often invest huge amounts of work into making those teases.

Removing teases globally is a blunt tool that does not properly account for the huge diversity of individual experiences and perceptions in our community so it is best reserved for extreme circumstances. Instead, I prefer to address the issue at the root, i.e. reduce the usage of the term in the first place as well as empowering the community and individuals to curate their own experience as much as possible.

Here are some of the ideas I could come up with (and I welcome your feedback):

• We've already changed the tag (done)
• I'll add a feature to the roadmap which automatically replaces the old tag with the new one going forward.
• Let's encourage authors to voluntarily use the term "trans woman" in titles and descriptions going forward. This could be extended into a broader "Milovana Code of Conduct". I believe a majority of authors would follow such guidance.
• As a community, let's start downvoting teases which use the old term just as we would do with other offensive, teases. Low rated teases are automatically hidden by default.
• We could also add a feature which allows users to filter out teases based on terms that are turn-offs or come with negative connotations for them. This isn't a cure-all obviously and we would have to think about which, if any, terms are filtered by default but it could be another tool in the toolbox which may be more suited to a diverse set of perspectives.
• When a tease is clearly and obviously made solely to offend and there is no artistic value at all, we have been and will continue to delete it. However, to be clear, the bar for this is very high. Such a tease will in most cases already have a <2.0 rating.
• We could issue a recommendation that titles and descriptions should avoid controversial/offensive terms. The idea being that only people who are interested in a given fetish will start a tease so people who find those themes offensive won't be exposed to it.
• This is likely going to be a more controversial idea but just like Reddit only considers certain subreddits for their front page, we similarly could have a more curated front page while still allowing the full gamut of teases to appear in some subcategory.

[Augustulus]

I personally made always a difference between the terms shemale and trans. For me a shemale is a trans person that is currently making porn in any form with the intention to make money. And this has definitely not a negative connotation for me. But yeah everybody reacts different to such terms. I also didn't know that this term was used in other ways (well, I'm also not a native english speaking person).

I agree with most of your ideas, but I would favorite the filter option. Even when certain filters are preset and you have to deactivate them manually I think it has the least impact on creativity.

In general I can't really estimate how controversial the term "shemale" is, so this is a more general view on the topic:
I've seen it critical in the past few years that people start to complain about everything that fits not in their worldview and often they are heard because they make a lot of noise even if it's only a hand full of people. Giving in to this demands lets the next one start to complain about his point of view and so on and soon everyone wants to change everything to meet his "right" view.
What I want to say is, that changes like banning a word should be really hard considered. Maybe best with the community and could really split up the community if not while a filter system could be an easy way to achieve this naturally. If a lot of people think a term is triggering them, they don't look for it and teases with it get less views which might lead to less teases to appear including the term.
Also would it be possible to have something like a blacklist for registered users? This way each on could filter out exactly what he wants.

[flash]

I just wanted to say thank you to seraph0x and eerie_ellie and then leave my 2 cents. Eerie_ellie, thanks for letting us know that's offensive. You undoubtedly understood you'd be under fire for bringing up the topic, and sure enough you were, but some of us actually do want to change our lexicon to be more welcoming to everyone. Seraph0x, you handled the situation beautifully.

To everyone else, I just have one thing to urge you. When someone brings something to your attention that is hurtful or offensive to them, but not to you, please consider the mindset, "What does this cost me, versus what does it benefit them?" In almost every situation, all it "costs" you is the use of a word that doesn't even matter. Who cares if you can't say a single specific word anymore? Don't all of us regularly change the words we use with the times? Not even offensive words like not saying "retard" anymore, even just simple daily interactions like "that was lit!" (yes, old example that could even be cringey now but highlights how rapidly our word usage changes).

What it benefits people is that they no longer have to feel systemic, ingrained malice/oppression/hate due to how things are left to fester. This literally just costs you the use of one word, which you can exchange for another word. Don't think either shemale or trans woman are offensive? Great! Then use the word that others tell you isn't offensive!

Almost always when people point out things like this, the ask is so little, but the benefit is extending respect and inclusion to marginalized minorities.

[Jackall]

I strongly disagree with flash and even the admins accomodating attitude. I will try to frame this neutrally as my intention is not to hurt or attack anyone. But I do beleive a solution that should be acceptable for everyone exists.
It seems to me that you missed how much baggage requests like this carry but I hope you will consider it. Im not much of a poster or contributor but have been lurking for many years. This is hot button, current politics, culture war issue at its finest, for good reason. In the past few years or even a decade large numbers of people have witnessed forceful introduction of a radical ideology into their communities, which have changed, divided or even ruined them. It comes with the mask of compassion, asking for politeness. I do not accuse the author of this topic of being malicious and I do not think this new cultural force (which is more or less a coherent ideology) is entirely intentional or planned. However I do think the author might be a victim of that thinking. I went a bit ahead of myself, in my view they are victimizing themselves.
In contrast to flash's "its just a word dont use it" attitude, I feel like this is suffocating. But I understand at this point, that sounds ridiculous because; the water is getting 1C warmer, and the frog is already screaming about boiling. +1C is never a big deal but you know the end of that story.
I hate to walk on eggshells. I dont feel comfortable, or welcome, I hate that I have to watch what I say or post based on arbitrary reasons because I will be judged not by my intention but an evaluation of words based on an ideology that sets up new taboos. But Im glad this place is still not like that.
It might be overblown to come down with a full long winded explanation against one little step of censorship, but this kind of step by step change has happened many times. The first step is accomodating subjective feelings around "vulnerable identities". This lays the groundwork -gives the authority- to some members who are aligned to this ideology to call out others for not adhereing to the new accomodation, (and feel moral about it) which leads to drama. It creates a toxic moral environment which is used by narcissists to get praise and "compassion" from eachother for standing on the correct side, and the picture of an enemy they need. Meanwhile people who just hate drama and politics just dribble away. Why its about identity is a long story and leads far, and it would be hard to express even in just a few pages how language influences thinking and even identity. So lets skip to the solution.
I think you should not at any cost make changes that affect the whole community.
Since that individuals goal is to avoid being triggered constantly, a solution where they can set up certain words to be sceened out should be suitable for them. I do think they owe this to the rest of us, they owe us to be able to keep their own feelings in check so that everyone else dont have to change for them. But we can aid them, or should I say us, because there are things and fetishes I would screen out for myself too for convenience. But by default, on the front page everything should be visible, if you change the default for everyone you make the first step in exerting control over neutral people based on subjective feelings. One day not adhering to some convention you didnt know about will be used against you maliciously and apologies will not help if you are truly in the way of someone. Because this is a tool and it has went exremely far already in many places. It is currently one of the main ways for waging political battles and for many people to get ahead with their career even. This is wild and no disrespect but I dont expect most older people to be able to fully grapple with this. Our polite societies have been a fruitful ground for the expansion of this phenomena. I spoke about what this points towards but I am not claiming all this slippery-slope is guaranteed to happen, it just too often does over time.

I think the best you can do for yourself with words that trigger you is get used to them, dont give them the power to have that effect on you. But I realize it is sometimes easier said than done and since the online space is luckily so versetile, if the admin is really a, extremely compassionate, b, just wants to avoid conflict as best as they can (which often involves even drawing in or creating online hatemobs) it is entirely reasonable to find an accomodation for the sensitive members that dont give legitimacy to victimhood mentality by changing the rules for everyone. This is not about politeness unfortunately, it is a battle of worldviews and how open and free a space should be. It bothers me where this could potentially lead.
I said it like five times I realize this tirade is too much to take in, but this is how i see it based on my past few years. Im so glad your energy and time is going towards this instead of implementing or advancing some features to improve functionality /s, but oh well this is the world we live in now.

[flash]

Your "toxic moral environment" which "people who just hate drama and politics" boil down to literally not using words that marginalize minority groups. The "safe space" you think you're losing never was one, it was built by non-marginalized groups and the knee-jerk reaction you're feeling is that you're losing that specific safe space.

Your ideology of "I think you should not at any cost make changes that affect the whole community" goes against the idea that we can be better. I shouldn't need to bring up examples of how non-progression leads to echo chambers of racist and other anti-X'ist viewpoints, how intrinsic suppression exists both in language and in what is allowed to permeate the fabric of a community.

The fact that you think this person's goal was to, "Not be triggered constantly," really makes me feel bad for you. It speaks of the priveleges you've had, so much so that you can't even understand why someone else may feel unwelcome due to hateful speech against them.

"I think the best you can do for yoruself with words that trigger you is get used to them," is something straight out of the 1800's deep South.

"I said it like five times I realize this tirade is too much to take in, but this is how i see it based on my past few years. Im so glad your energy and time is going towards this instead of implementing or advancing some features to improve functionality /s, but oh well this is the world we live in now."
Why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Why doesn't anyone who is so fervently against this go make a site where you can use whatever slurs-you-don't-believe-to-be-offensive that you want? If there exist so many people with your sentiment, surely there must exist some place for people like you.

[Jackall]

This thinking comes in a package, you either buy into it or you dont. Its not about a single word or a single occurence I just wanted to stress that point, and encourage everyone to recognize it by the phrases it hides its agruments in. Like "marginalized people" or "safe space" . Both of those expressions say volumes about how this ideology sees the world. If you agree with it conscously, if you want to bend the knee, that is ok its your choice, and its ok when its your own site. But to anyone more neutral still deciding, at least be aware of this. Then decide if you want a free space or an eternal battle between safe spaces.

edit: I want to note something important, I did not say "they just want to avoid being triggered contantly" because im 100% certain about it. In fact I know this cancer and I recognize a trojan horse, I know for a fact that these kind of pushes are about changing all social spaces for moralistic utopian views. My attempt was about giving a person I dont know the benefit of the doubt despite this. What if, for them in their mind it really is not about a broader political point but their own feelings? So I tried to operate in that framework because then I think its possible to accomodate them to a degree. It can be expected to get called out on that and accused of "privilige" (another magic word) if you disarm the attempt by going along with their excuse in a way that doesnt help their broader goals.

[SilverDuck]

Here are some of the ideas I could come up with (and I welcome your feedback):

• We've already changed the tag (done)
• I'll add a feature to the roadmap which automatically replaces the old tag with the new one going forward.
• Let's encourage authors to voluntarily use the term "trans woman" in titles and descriptions going forward. This could be extended into a broader "Milovana Code of Conduct". I believe a majority of authors would follow such guidance.
  ...
• We could issue a recommendation that titles and descriptions should avoid controversial/offensive terms. The idea being that only people who are interested in a given fetish will start a tease so people who find those themes offensive won't be exposed to it.

I think this combo might actually make it harder for people to avoid teases with content they find offensive. For instance, if the tease tag/description says “trans”, the tease itself may use “trans” or it may use potentially offensive terms like “shemale”. Likewise, beyond the terms themselves, it may be thematically neutral or positive - presenting trans women as just another body type people might find attractive - or it might be thematically negative - stigmatizing attraction to and sex with trans women as inherently repugnant or humiliating. If all teases with trans pics or themes are lumped together under the same neutral tag, it’s impossible to know going in whether you’re going to get neutral/positive terms and themes or offensive/negative terms and themes. Maybe a better approach would be to have two tags - “trans” or “trans positive” for the neutral/positive teases and “trans negative” for the ones with negative terms and themes?

If that works for people, you could extend it to any other category that poses a similar issue. I know I’ve noped out part way through a few teases with “cuckold”, “cum eating” and/or “forced bi” tags that seemed interesting but ended up using the term “faggot” or having racialized humiliation themes (e.g., the implication that being cucked by a black man is somehow extra humiliating), which I find unpalatable (no CEI pun intended!). It’s not a big deal for me, but it would be nice to have tags that signal whether that stuff’s gonna be in the tease, and I can imagine that for some members who are gay/bi or black, it’s probably similar to the “trans” vs “shemale” issue.

Anyway, that’s all just a long-winded way of saying that I think more tags that signal whether content is potentially offensive would be better than just changing the existing tags to neutral terms.

[Jackall]

Silverduck I think those are good ideas they aid understanding and navigation. Id like to tie them to two things because I thougt you were going there but not quite.
First Id like to shamelessly shill my community tease tagging idea, one of the topics in this subforum. What you suggested kind of relates to the idea that tags could be nested in eachother and people could search for broader/narrower tags and include/exclude them. Altough 2 tags are easier to do, tagging retroactively and accurately when there might be some grey areas might pose a problem, and also people missing teases they would like for not knowing what to look for.
The other thing I thougt you might mention is that shemale is a sub category of trans, but they are not the same thing. Altough in practice Im sure 99% of trans porn are with shemales. It is used descriptively in porn because in porn it matters what genitalia one has.

[SilverDuck]

Jackall, yeah, definitely like the idea of community tagging. Ideally, perhaps, you could distinguish between the author’s own tags and the community tags to preserve authorial intent while also getting the benefit of the community’s perspective.

On your trans/shemale point, I agree that “female-presenting, but with a schlong” is a subcategory of “trans”, and the term “shemale” is generally used to refer to that subcategory. However, outside of the porn context, that term has definite derogatory connotations that I think sort of unavoidably carry over into the porn context whether or not that’s intended. So, in my opinion, I think you’d ideally have a tag for that subcategory that’s more specific than “trans” but without the baggage of “shemale”. That said, I think the vast majority of people interested in that content here are probably looking for the same thing anyway - boobs and a penis - so despite being technically over inclusive, “trans” by itself is likely sufficient.

[TheHenchmen]

To be honest, I don´t get the discussion entirely.

I can empathize that some phrases may be slurs in context. But they are also part of the fetish culture and have positive attributes associated with them. So without intent/context, they are meaningless.

Some of these slurs/phrases I know are:

Femboy: Feminine body with distinct male genitals. Usually utilized in a M/M setting, with the "Femboy" in a submissive role. Femboys are sometimes trans, but not always. I really don´t see the term "Femboy" used much at all, but I think that this is relevant to the fetishes I follow. Femboys are usually fetishised with Chasity belts and costumed in "younger" roles (teenagers, students). I see the term sometimes used in hentai where the setup is F/M with a distinct "yuri" flair to the relationship.

Shemale: Trans person with breasts and penis. Used mostly in situations where the Trans has the active sexual part (similar to "TSSeduction" Productions from Kink). Shemale emphasizes the duality of the sexual situation with both attributes present and contradicts the feminization of males in the "femboy" or "sissy" setup or complete appearances from post-op trans.

Sissy: Male attributes but feminine clothing and decoration, Often used as form of verbal degradation (as part of Roleplay), more common in F/M settings. Sissys are usually not trans and distinguish the "Sissy" Role from out-of-play identities. Sissy is unironically used by several persons I know in the submissive role.

Trap: Slur utilized to comment on Transgender Persons or Femboys whose feminine appearance is so strong that heterosexual males get "trapped" in a sexual attraction to someone out of their comfort zone. This is a difficult for me... for one thing, it´s clearly a slur (a trap is never something you´d like to get into) but it´s also a positive/empowering comment on trans persons that they could attract and seduce someone who doesn´t like their sexuality.

Trans: Trans is not specific to either femboy, sissy or trap. It is analogue to "Female" to terms like "Domme", it doesn´t specify the sexual role of the persons. The slur for trans is "tranny" as it belittles the Trans.
In Germany, the term "Trans" has mutated from the "Transvestite" (males with female clothes/makeup as part of a role, more known as "crossdressers" currently) to the more current "Transgender" (males/females with sexual identities different from their biological gender, applies to both combinations). This makes the phrase "Trans" to quite a broad brush, applying to both temporary sexual roles and factual genders.

The point I don´t get:
Why do those engaging this "slurs" debate want to claim ownership over language? Language is inherently anarchistic, it cannot be controlled, protected or defined. Language will constantly develop, change and develop codes per indirect association. So by controlling the word "femboy", "Shemale" or "sissy" right now, those using the words unironically and purposefully to describe their sexual preferences or own identities will do 2 things:
- be annoyed for a while
- develop another code for their preference

as the situation is, this will lead to a lingual "whack-a-mole" where the next offensive term is declared by those offended and those not offended will develop a new word. The entire goal is moot as there are some who aren´t offended, but "need" these slurs to describe their own identities.

Following the BDSM community and looking at the gay part of this culture, the situation is even more bizarre.
Slurs like "faggot", "pig", "Twink" are not only used ironically, but are integrated in some of the roleplay relevant for bottoms and doms. So the context is "yeah, it´s a slur. A slur we love to use"

Which leads me to the most important question:
What makes a slur a slur?
The recipient, the communicator, the intent? One of the three? Two of the three?

[chual99]

A slur has always been a combination of speaker's intent and recipient's response, with a larger emphasis on recipient's response. The best example is the N-word; the African-American community use the word with impunity, and no offense is ever taken. The N-word means nothing to an African local; the word has no meaning, and you could call them that word with the most vicious of intents, and they would never bat an eye at you.

People are ultimately choosing to be offended over certain words, and asking society to change language in order to accommodate their feelings. I'm not aware of the term "shemale" ever having been used with ill intent on this website, and yet we have instances of people choosing to be offended. This is obviously a slippery slope, since a line eventually needs to be drawn. All this does is set up a precedence for more changes to be suggested, due to perceived offenses.

There's plenty of fetishes that are popular on this website that I don't appreciate (ie foot fetishes, water sports, etc.) I don't ask people to change anything. I just ignore those webteases/forum threads and move on. I don't see why other people can't do that, as well.

[mangoman]

I think this topic is dead, but still, please don't let this website become Planet Woke. Because if it becomes forcefully woke, I'm out. Have to deal with this on a regular basis in my private life, I don't wanna do this when I try to get my mind off of my private life.

[boundupone]

This feels like the start of a slippery slope, as almost anything can be offensive to someone. For example -

I am colour blind, red green colour blind specifically. Therefore any teases involving colours (red-green, quizzes etc) are offensive to me and should be updated or removed. This may seem extreme but it is just to illustrate my point (I actually dont care about this).

But if we take this route, where does it stop? I can very easily imagine any woman being offended by the commonly used terms such as slut, bitch etc, so should we now force the removal and censorship of all of these terms as well?

And surely any person of colour could be offended by terms such as master and slave, and would have a stronger claim to force removal than a trans person with the term shemale.

The contents of this site are clearly going to be offensive to the majority of the population, and I do not want to start down the path to x, y or z not being acceptable. Of course there are legally necessary things (minors, beast etc) that we cannot allow otherwise we risk the site being closed. But for me that is all that should be done, nothing more.

[Butt_Hole]

its certainly a hard topic but i think we can make some changes to the tag system, essentially we could add an improved filter system where people can select what types of tags they want to see such as a slur category or a verbal degradation category where teases that use terms like "shemale", "tranny", "faggot" etc can be automatically sorted into and people could turn off certain categories that trigger/turn them off.

I also think that when people sign up or begin their first tease they should be told about how the tag system works so that they can work with it and any harmful content as seraphox said can be removed if needed.

basically the website needs an overhaul and i dont blame seraphox for not being able to keep up as im sure they have a personal life, however im sure some more techical people would happily volunteer to help improve this community and it should take much less effort to screen these people and to check their work to make sure it isn't malicious

[Roblsforbobls]

At the risk of annoying people for reviving this thread from the grave I'd like to give my 2 cents.

Opinion wall of text incoming:

Spoiler: show

Derogatory words in porn have always bothered me. In the public we need to respect each other and be polite in order for everyone to get along. That includes not calling each other names that historically have been used to demonize and talk down to marginalized groups.

People in general are pretty good at not calling people the N word because that's kind of a shitty thing to do (unless of course the same word can be referred to you, at which point cultural context matters) or say "colored", and people recognize that now because a lot of time has passed since using that word was normal and accepted.

The LGBTQ community in a tight spot because it is going through a similar experience that the African American community in the US went through decades ago, where in the current political climate their rights are in question and they are fighting for respect and acceptance from the broader population of people. Now is the right time for education and the changing of our language, which is why you might see a lot of people pushing for using accepted terms and refrain from using derogatory language. Not everyone is there yet and not everyone is exposed to these topics in the public.

Porn is the place where people learn about taboo things because they are too embarrassed to discuss them with people they know publicly. This is where a lot of people learn about sex, positions, and yes, colorful words like "shemale" which most people probably first saw on porn sites. Unfortunately the things that porn teaches aren't usually positive or complete. Porn is where people learn that marginalized groups can be looked down upon and be called names. It's where you can see that it's more humiliating to be cucked by a black man for some reason (thank you SilverDuck for that example), or that liking dicks and questioning your sexuality means that you're "turning into a fag" and you should be ashamed of that. When it comes to how we see other people, there is inevitably some carry over from porn into the real world, and porn sites can be an echo chamber of negativity and hate that feeds into the public's ideas.

On the flip side though, porn that deals in humiliation and taboos is hot as hell because sex is electrified by giving into inner desires and feeling like you're breaking rules and being corrupted. Porn is constantly changing and adapting to what people believe are taboo and will always seek to make people uncomfortable. As others have said, using derogatory terms in porn is commonly how this kind of rule-breaking and corruption is signaled. Pornhub might have a transgender section now, but there are still videos touting "shemale" in the title, and I think that's ok, because I believe porn is the wrong place to try to expect people to always adhere to social norms outside of strict morality and what is legal.

TL;DR:
I think we should follow in Pornhub's example, which seeks to create a more welcoming community through site design and features, rather than censorship and strict moderation on people's comments (that will change by itself over time, and people don't really use slurs to degrade people in forums anyways). I applaud Seroph0x for changing the shemale tags to trans, but so much more can be done:

• Update the pronoun/identity selection options to be more inclusive of people's identities
• I like Seraph0x's idea for a code of conduct. If we want to be LGBTQ-friendly here, that post can seek to educate with a list of terms considered derogatory and better words to use.
• Add a tease filter option for "trans" so people don't have to search "shemale" to find content (I mean they probably still will, but at least it won't be their only first option).
• Add a community tagging feature system where anyone can suggest tags for a tease, with some of the options being "derogatory", "trans-negative", or something similar. That way a tease with "shemale" in the title or that uses the word "faggot" in the tease could also be paired with "derogatory" in the tags. I think that can go a long way with demonstrating this community is welcoming to everyone and willing to acknowledge that although porn allows us to engage with and enjoy taboos, they are considered taboo for a reason. People who are sensitive to or uncomfortable with things like that will thus have a disclaimer prior to starting the tease. Of course this also empowers the community to improve the tags of all of the teases on this site and would improve the experience for basically everyone. Win/win, right?

  I know I’ve noped out part way through a few teases with “cuckold”, “cum eating” and/or “forced bi” tags that seemed interesting but ended up using the term “faggot” or having racialized humiliation themes (e.g., the implication that being cucked by a black man is somehow extra humiliating), which I find unpalatable (no CEI pun intended!). It’s not a big deal for me, but it would be nice to have tags that signal whether that stuff’s gonna be in the tease, and I can imagine that for some members who are gay/bi or black, it’s probably similar to the “trans” vs “shemale” issue.

  Basically, I agree with SilverDuck's idea and think it would be best realized with a community tagging feature, which I believe Jackall also suggested.