Transphobic Slurs

[eerie_ellie]

Hi! First off, I really like this site A lot of these teases are really unique concepts, and hot as hell. I'm really into interactive porn like this. This site has been a go-to for me for a while. But at the same time, it can be very off-putting. I'm trans, and seeing teases with the slur "shemale" all over can seriously ruin the mood when I'm here to try and get off. A number of months ago (February, I think) a tease with that in name won the TOTM and was plastered to the side of the site for a whole month...

Not trying to blame anyone, heck 5 years ago I didn't even know what trans people were, and had definitely seen the word "shemale" in porn and just not understood what I was looking at: transgender people on hormones. But I'd really appreciate if the moderation team would keep that word out of tease titles, rather than promoting them with TOTM. And I cant be the only trans lurker using this site to be bothered by this.

[Bandit224]

I've known about trans most of my life but I've never heard that shemale was a transphobic slur. What do they prefer to be called?

[eerie_ellie]

Just call us trans women

[Xardas]

How about this: instead of sterilizing the site to oblivion by banning any and all words that offend someone, somewhere, at some point in time, we just... get rid of people who maliciously use slurs to offend people? People, that, in my experience with the site, basically don't exist here, or are shut up so fast that I haven't managed to run into them at all.

Shemale has been used in a lot, I mean a LOT of teases. if we ban it, we would have to retroactively purge all of them. And so far, as far as memory serves you actually ARE the first to want that.

I mean, by the same logic, sissy is also a slang term with plenty of negative connotations. We gonna ban that too, just to be safe?And flush down over half the teases on the site while we are at it, that are using the term "sissy"? I mean, if the site should be consistent with its rules and want to blanket ban offensive terminology, then sissy most certainly must go too at that point.

Oh, and then there are the plentiful amount of verbal humiliation focused teases that intentionally use offensive words and slurs, because... well, verbal humiliation. There are quite a few people on this site who are getting off to that. Are we going to tell them that their kink is invalid and "bad words" should no be used, period? No, context matters. Someone using a word to offend or hurt others? Ban the fucker! Not for using word X, but for being toxic and harmful for the community.

Blanket censoring words is stupid, inane and a tool from the toolbox of totalitarian regimes. And on top of all of that, it doesn't work. People wanting to offend, will just latch onto another word and use that and the mod team can play catch-up banning a whole array of words in the process. While a lot of people who used it without malice will be like "oh, I didn't mean to offend... I... I just better shut up, before I step on another verbal landmine". Censorship always has a chilling effect like that, that's exactly the point it was made for.

I realize I just wrote a wall of text, but I've had it with cancerous cancel culture and its attempt to hijack and sterilize any and all conversations and media.

[Ph0enixAsh]

I would have to agree that I had no idea "shemale" was considered a derogatory term. I'll even admit I had to go verify that it was with corroborating articles and reddit posts like this /trans_people_do_you_find_the_term_shemale. Problem is, as stated above, the word has been so ubiquitous in porn that a lot of content has been made by others who are also unaware of the connotation.

However, I think the goal here should be to educate people going forward; to make people aware of the nature of the word and encourage alternatives for those creating future teases and give creators an opportunity to go back and modify their existing work if they wish.

At the same time, an open mind must be kept for those teases that can't be changed. Maybe it's a humiliation context and goes right along with other harsh language like slut, fag, bitchboy, sissy, or cunt. Some people are into to it and this site is about exploring without judgement. Maybe the creator had no ill-intent but is no longer around to modify the script. Avoid the tease if it offends you.

I realize the TOTM scenario was unique in that it wasn't completely avoidable but, again, I highly doubt it was used with transphobic intent and I'm guessing the tease was created by a user who admires trans women. They just didn't know better yet.

In a nutshell:
Educate, don't hate. We're a unique community who is certainly capable of growing together.

[Helequin]

Ooof, yeah this is kind of a tough one. I've never liked the term 'shemale' and found it offputting, even before I learned enough to know it was also outright offensive (that itself was years ago). It surprises me how ubiquitous the term remains on a lot of porn tube or gallery websites when there are far better words for this like trans.

On the other hand, dealing with offensive terms in general in an adult content website is...difficult to say the least. There are quite a few people who would class this entire website as immoral and offensive. The content explores themes such as humiliation, degradation, master/mistress and slave, and on and on. The whole point is to be able to explore these themes for those who want to do so, but that of course also leaves the content around for those who do not want to see it.

Add on to that the world of porn / adult content has a way of just scooping up words and using them as labels to find content. Many of them are potentially offensive or at the very least reductive to the people they describe (e.g. shemale, twink, bear, bimbo etc.). Even perfectly normal words take on a whole different context in porn as they get used as labels for some content or another. Unfortunately, these labels have become the accepted way to categorize and search for such content.

There's one more confounding factor with offensive words, which is an international community. Certain words are a lot harsher in some cultures than others, to say nothing of translations. An example is the word 'cunt' which to my ears is possibly one of the worst things anyone can call a woman and an exceptionally coarse curse word. Yet in other English speaking areas cunt is more frequently used as a coarse, but general curse word.

So what can we do about all this? As others above me have said a blanket ban on a specific word is unworkable and will create as many problems as it solves given the content people enjoy exploring here. Absolutely education and teaching everyone we can why such terms are offensive and what they can use instead is critical.

As a start, perhaps someone who is well versed in this should write a short educational post about the various terminology used for people identifying as genders other than male or female, and if management supports it sticky it somewhere?

Another possible small fix is to convert any webtease tags of 'shemale' to trans. This won't change the webtease title or content at all, but will at least make the 'official' tag something more neutral in tone. Not sure how feasible this is however.

[HyjinxRavepaws]

has been used in a lot, I mean a LOT of teases. if we ban it, we would have to retroactively purge all of them. And so far, as far as memory serves you actually ARE the first to want that.

Blanket censoring

This isn't what the OP is asking for though. They only don't want the word appearing in the titles of teases and more specifically the TOTM that gets plastered all over the tease page for the entire next month. That's a small thing, OP isn't asking to delete all these teases for ever and not allow the word to be used, just not in titles.

sissy

This word isn't an offensive, phobic slur that targets a marginalized class. Do we allow the "N" word in tease tittles or any other of the big slurs? I don't think so. This word is just as harmful to the trans community. It shows that people don't view them as women but as men who want to 'play pretend'

Many tube websites have already gone through and renamed the category from this to 'transgender'. Those are the sites that I choose to frequent and share links from. Yes, titles will still have it, because the industry still hasn't entirely switched from using that 'branding'. But there has been a lot of pushback there as well and a lot of those companies have changed their names/imagery/branding.

Don't get left in the 2000s, join us in the 2020s.

As a start, perhaps someone who is well versed in this should write a short educational post about the various terminology used for people identifying as genders other than male or female, and if management supports it sticky it somewhere?

Another possible small fix is to convert any webtease tags of 'shemale' to trans. This won't change the webtease title or content at all, but will at least make the 'official' tag something more neutral in tone. Not sure how feasible this is however.

Another big thing that would help is creating more "gender" tags in the profile page. Or making it a custom option where you just type in your answer. Simply because there are lots of alternative genders, but even just something as simple as changing "Transsexual/Transgender" which gives no information about the persons actual gender to "Trans man" and "Trans woman" would be a good start.

This site needs a QoL overhaul, and obviously needs more technical people to spend some time on it, as Sepher0x can't do everything seemingly for free and we've had a tease bug for a couple weeks now. Perhaps we should convert stuff to Open Source and allow our large technologically savvy community to help fix errors and make contributions to making Milovana a more inclusive website.

It honestly took me 7 or 8 years to make an account, because I was scared of the offensive language people used in tease titles. Like "If they're using the 'S' word in teases, they'd never actually accept me as a woman here.'" That's legitimately how it made me feel, and I'm sure I'm not the only one out here.

[polkadotwolf]

- Joins site that is very niche with very few active users as it is. Like maybe 200 active users.
- Demands changes for very their first post. Is 'their' okay. Can I say that? [Jes** F*ing C*rist]
- Has otherwise contributed nothing.

Fun.

I'll see myself out. How does one delete an account? Is that possible?

[Xardas]

- Joins site that is very niche with very few active users as it is. Like maybe 200 active users.
- Demands changes for very their first post. Is 'their' okay. Can I say that? [Jes** F*ing C*rist]
- Has otherwise contributed nothing.

Fun.

I'll see myself out. How does one delete an account? Is that possible?

That about was my first, knee-jerk reaction too, but I figured it'd be more productive to take few deep breaths and actually put my frustration into more coherent arguments.

But to be super clear: I am 200% against banning words willy-nilly. The mods can do what they want of course, but if they go down that route, I'm out. Seen that shit going down way too many times on way too many sites and it never ended well.

This isn't what the OP is asking for though. They only don't want the word appearing in the titles of teases and more specifically the TOTM that gets plastered all over the tease page for the entire next month.

It's still a blanket ban on the word: don't ever use it in titles, because I don't want to see it. And, here's the thing, I've been a moderator on a number of sites, I still am on one, quite sizable site. Not gonna specify it further, since I'd very much like to keep this account wholly separated from my less... kinky online personas, you can call me a liar if want for not giving you proof on this. But one thing I learned via doing moderation online for over a decade now is if the moderation team will start to give in individual demands to restrict people's speech or conduct beyond the reasonable levels already provided by the typical rules, the demands will NEVER stop coming. Oh, don't let them name the teases X way, because I don't want to see it. Give it a month or two and we'll have the next demand that "well, it's an offensive word, so it shouldn't be used at all... and by the way Y is also an offensive word, I really hate it, you should ban that too". And the thing is, these demands always come from the same, very, VERY tiny subsection of the community, often time new arrivals, who only really joined to do thought policing to begin with. Seen those people a LOT recently.

This word [sissy] isn't an offensive, phobic slur that targets a marginalized class.

Except it is. Sissy is very, VERY often used as derogatory slur against any queer folks by homophobes along with words like faggot. That's exactly why it is kinky to use for those who have a thing for verbal humiliation: it is an offensive, demeaning, belittling, humiliating word. Most teases use it still, because the main userbase for the site are submissive males, most of whom are into verbal humiliation. THAT is why context matters.

As for your N-word example: gotta love how we ignore that the black communities often use that word a plenty among themselves. Because guess what, context matters. Always. Personally I find universally making words taboo very stupid, yes, including the "n-word". Like, you can't say "fuck" on TV or in PG-13 movies. So people just say "fudge" for example. Or cut off the word ("what the fu...") Did that change anything whatsoever? No, everyone still knows what was that word there. It's silly. And people wanting to hate will just find another word to use anyway. Words have as much power as we give them. Making words taboo will only ever make them more impactful and important, not less.

Don't get left in the 2000s, join us in the 2020s.

Oh, yay, current year argument. How quaint.

Nah, I'd be fine in the 2000s honestly. Before covid, before cancel culture, before idiots trying to sell pro-censorship ideology as somehow liberal, before guilty unless proven innocent became the norm in media... before all that nonsense.

[lolol2]

Just to bring in a little scale...
This site has around 7200 teases online at the moment and in exactly 70 (yes I counted them) is the word "shemale" used in the titel or description.

I guess in most of them the text/pics are specially focused on the verbal humiliating kink stuff, where I guess it's "okay" to use this specific word because it is specially used to force this reaction?
The already named comparison with the word sissy is a very good argument because it's used in the same kind of way.

I'm very open minded and totally accept any sexual identity, but can't really see the problem here?
Because banning that word would also ban that special kink? Teases are only made again and again when people like it, specially when they get voted as TOTM.
So when you want to claim more consideration you also have to think about if you don't take other people something away with your claim... kind of: "Your freedom ends where mine begins".

About the TOTM on the start page... I would like to see as a general rule that you have to use a more softcore based picture as your thumbnail and a "softer" title... because some stuff I have seen there over the years... I just don't like to see them there for a month...

It honestly took me 7 or 8 years to make an account, because I was scared of the offensive language people used in tease titles.

Welcome to the community and don't take everything personally against you, sites like this which are offer a platform for nearly any kink are only possible when people are open minded.

[eerie_ellie]

I get that a lot of teases are about humiliation, and that slurs can be a part of that. If a tease was aimed at trans women, and it called you a slur during it as a form of humiliation, then sure I can see the appeal. I think thats fine. But Ive never seen it used in that way, I'm talking about the teases where its calling trans women in photos shemales. They're teases like "Learn to love shemales" or "shemale tease". The word isnt applied to the player to humiliate them here. Its applied to trans women the player looks at or is dommed by. This isnt how the word sissy is used at all, where the teases almost always are calling the player a sissy as a way to degrade them. Which is pretty hot.

I also dont really care about going back and changing all existing teases, like maybe that'd be good but even if it was just new ones that'd be great.

Also like I said, Im not trying to throw blame around here, I get that a lot of people dont realize that its a slur. They aren't trying to use it transphobic way, but the word is inherently transphobic regardless. This post isnt about "people wanting to offend", its about a harmful word that people probably don't realize is harmful. People can learn, thats fine.

It honestly took me 7 or 8 years to make an account, because I was scared of the offensive language people used in tease titles. Like "If they're using the 'S' word in teases, they'd never actually accept me as a woman here.'" That's legitimately how it made me feel, and I'm sure I'm not the only one out here.

Exactly. This would make this a more welcoming space, and help grow the community. I would have certainly created an account sooner if it seemed like a less hostile place to trans folks.

[Helequin]

A couple things I feel I should add here to all this.

First of all, I don't think anyone should quickly discount a well thought out and articulated suggestion. How may posts the person making that suggestion has made should have absolutely no bearing on the validity of the suggestion. Not only does post count not change the reasoning behind the suggestion, sometimes newcomers see something which can be improved which everyone else has just become used to.

Any such suggestion should be considered and weighed on it's own merit for the website and community as a whole.

That said, I want to emphasize why I think some form of education/information post to Milovana users is the best main response to this (although some QoL improvements to tags and so on would also be good).

Many people are still learning about what it means for others to be transgender. They won't know anyone who is trans and so any information they get is through media, including porn. It's probably not that uncommon to have people who's only knowledge of transgender people in a sexual context is through porn.

And porn pretty much teaches that terrible, reductive words are the norm (e.g shemale, tranny, ladyboy, bimbo, slut, bitch, fag...and so on), at least when referring to porn where many people on screen are treated more like fuck toys and stunt cocks than people. Milovana, despite being an adult community and not a porn site, is still close to a lot of those porn industry associations because of how content is found and linked to.

Add to that not every trans person I've spoken with/had text conversations with feels the same about which words are the worst. I've known at least one to say shemale is fine if it's strictly in a porn context (e.g. the tease 7 Days Denial for Shemales is written by an author who identifies herself as shemale), though most I imagine feel the word is a slur. Regardless, unlike some of the very established slurs we have (like the N word), there is yet to be a widespread awareness and consensus of which words are so potentially hurtful when it comes to address trans people.

This lack of awareness is why education is so important. I'm pretty sure a tease author writing to a theme about learning to love trans women would not want to knowingly use a label which is inherently offensive to most of them, with the possible exception of humiliating the player of the tease by making fun of what they are getting off to.

Education means that hopefully more and more users can use labels such as 'shemale' or trans in ways which match their intentions, rather than simply parroting a label normalized in porn. It also doesn't require all the practical headaches of trying to implement a word ban or admin overwrites to tease titles in a space where coarse, awful words are appropriate when used in the correct context (verbal humiliation etc.).

A highly visible educational post would also hopefully help ease any concerns or fears of potential community members who are trans or offended by seeing the word 'shemale' all over. It would help to show that context does indeed matter and while the word does get used in that porn sort of context, members of any gender are actually welcome and accepted here.

[Xardas]

A couple things I feel I should add here to all this.

First of all, I don't think anyone should quickly discount a well thought out and articulated suggestion. How may posts the person making that suggestion has made should have absolutely no bearing on the validity of the suggestion. Not only does post count not change the reasoning behind the suggestion, sometimes newcomers see something which can be improved which everyone else has just become used to.

Any such suggestion should be considered and weighed on it's own merit for the website and community as a whole.

I partially agree with this. Yes, the validity of the argument itself has nothing to do with the post count. Someone can be very much right in their very first post in an argument against a core member with thousands of posts, sure. The reason why i am weary of newcomers to a community wanting changes right off the bat, without participating or even caring about the community before, is because it has been a very, VERY annoying trend in the communities I frequent that people who care not for the community come in and demand people in there to confirm to their ideology. Like, I'm a gamer and I like my anime / manga / etc. say, Ghost of Tsushima came out a while back. It's a game made by an American company on the Mongolian invasion of medieval Japan. People, who had no interest in gaming, came out from the woodwork shouting about "cultural appropriation" (which is a bs concept to begin with) and how games like this are so offensive and shouldn't be made. Manga artists these days get harassed by westerners who never read any of their stuff come to them to demand changes in how they draw because it's "sexist" and cannot be tolerated. And I could go on and on and on. These constant nonsense intrusions have become so common, that at this point they blend together into a constant background noise.

So, I'm more than likely to jump the gun on people demanding changes of how something is policed in their very first interaction with a community, because overwhelming majority of the cases it comes from people who don't give a damn about the community itself and are just there to push an agenda.

With that being said, I'm fully in favor of educating people on kinks and sexualities. Hell, that was what the Urge part of the site was meant for, it just kinda got nowhere (just as user blogs and official blogs are "coming soon" for like... 5 years). I know it's easy to say X or Y needs development, but honestly, the site could use some active development to be honest. I understand that doing that for free is something we cannot expect anyone to do though. Maybe setting up a patreon or subscribestar account to cover development costs?

[HyjinxRavepaws]

With that being said, I'm fully in favor of educating people on kinks and sexualities. Hell, that was what the Urge part of the site was meant for, it just kinda got nowhere (just as user blogs and official blogs are "coming soon" for like... 5 years). I know it's easy to say X or Y needs development, but honestly, the site could use some active development to be honest. I understand that doing that for free is something we cannot expect anyone to do though. Maybe setting up a patreon or subscribestar account to cover development costs?

This site has a rather large tech-based community inside of it, just peek into the Teasing Software subforum. It would be easy to get people to volunteer their time to improve things and develop things if there were channels through which to do that. To my knowledge, everything is closed source and Sepher0x (please inform me if I'm wrong) would have to change that and give people the ability to modify and upgrade things. Obviously, like all open source projects, it would have to be vetted and tested before it could go live so people can't push harmful updates, but I feel it would help make massive improvements to everything about the sites infrastructure (as well as give more eyes to handle/fix bugs like the current Tease creation bug).

A Patreon would probably help if there were actual costs and physical infrastructure improvements needed, but that is unlikely to be necessary. I have a general idea of how this site and EOS probably runs under the hood as a developer myself and think a lot of people in this community would be willing and able to help.

Side Note: Open Source still holds copyrights and prevents people from just launching their own website and using the things that are built here without violating copyright law. (This depends on the license of choice, and would be something to discuss at length before making the change.) This is one of people's biggest concerns with open source, and a common misconception.

[Shattered]

Multiple reports form this thread so I'm locking it.