The spectrum of sexuality and BDSM

[Lord Byron]

A boy who will remain anonymous recently PM'd me and said he was straight but interested in "forced homosexuality." I do not doubt that this boy is straight, and fully support the right of everyone to describe themselves how they want. However, it got me thinking about the various ways sexuality is expressed in different people.

For example, let's take a look at cuckolding. Most people who are into cuckolding would describe themselves as straight, and this is generally accepted. But there is also a certain degree of homoeroticism in cuckolding--after all, you want to see an attractive man having sex with your wife. However, this is usually because it is humiliating to the sub to see a man more attractive than them with their wife.

Then there's the issue of strap-ons. There is nothing inherently homoerotic about anal play, but it gets a bit more complicated when a sub is forced to "give head to" a strap-on. Still, one could say that the sub is attracted to the humiliation of sucking on the strap-on and appearing to be gay, and not actually the idea of sucking a penis. Yet some people are attracted to both.

Finally we get to the fetish of forced bi and forced homosexuality, and there still is no clear line. One could not be attracted to men at all, yet find the idea of being forced by a woman to have sex with a man an incredible turn-on. But it is precisely because they are not attracted to men that it is humiliating for them to be forced to have sex with them. Of course, some men who are into forced bi would say they actually are bi.

Where I'm going with this, I guess, is that when you get into BDSM and D/s, traditional labels like "heterosexual" and "homosexual" begin to fall apart. Many people who are not gay, but consider BDSM a sexual act, will still take a flogging from the same sex and not consider it a "gay" act.

What do you think of all this? Do you agree with me? Or are you of the opinion that anyone who's into any of the above-mentioned activities is secretly homosexual or bisexual?

And in the end does it really matter? Shouldn't we strive for a world where these labels are meaningless?

In my opinion it all boils down to "your kink" and "your sexuality." I don't think anyone can define those for you or should try to force their beliefs about them on you.

[Makarov]

My thoughts on this topic are simple. Maybe. Let's see about that one Anyway....whether you as a person say you are gay or not is your own concern. Whether a woman says she's a lesbian or is not my concern. These are issues that the person deals with themselves.

If you're a man, and there's a man standing right behind you with his dick in your ass, then you are performing a homosexual act. The only thing that makes you gay is how much you enjoy it. None of that changes the fact that a homosexual act is going on.

However, let's say a woman has a strap on, and it's the plastic dildo in your ass. I would argue that as there is no homosexual act, that enjoying it would not make you gay.

...and to do my Jeff Foxworthy impression...

If you're watching your wife cuckold you and you spend your time looking at the guy...you might be a gay.

[Nwah]

I would have to agree that in a broad sense, men interested in cuckolding are more interested in the humiliation aspect. Not to say there's no homosexual husbands out there, repressed or otherwise.

Men enjoying anal stimulation is not gay. It started in the gay community, and it retains that stigma in the mainstream. The anus is full of sensitive nerve endings, so there is a logical argument to say that it's simply pleasurable in the most basic sense of the word. Also, historically the act of being penetrated has been considered the submissive position, and the penetrator has been considered the dominant. Thus, I'd conclude that pegging is not a homosexual act, but a role-reversal and general physical stimulation.

[Incubo]

Personally, I don't put a lot of stock in labels. The label I use for you may not be the label you use for yourself and ultimately, they are just a way for us to catagorize things into some sort of orderly fashion. Beyond that, they are fairly useless as there are always exceptions to the "rules" especially when dealing with something as complex as human behaviour.

The question of whether or not you're a homosexual or bi, I think depends on what it is about those particular acts that you enjoy. In your examples, if the guy is actually turned on by the humiliation of these things, then I can see where he might not consider himself gay or bi. However, if the act of sucking dick or being penetrated by another man itself is what he enjoys, then perhaps he is.

Something that someone once said as a joke I think really illustrates my point. "You're only gay if you like it."
While he was only trying to be humorous at the time, that really is pretty much how I see it.

[ejgs42]

I can't believe I missed this thread.

First of all, isn't being gay a lifestyle choice? I mean, there's "being gay", and then there's engaging in a homoerotic act. The two are not necessarily one in the same. I think everybody is on the right track with their thinking, and everybody is certainly welcome to their own opinions, but when it comes down to it, engaging in homoerotic acts does not make you gay, per se.

Let me pose this question: If you are engaged in a relationship of a sexual nature with a she-male, or a transsexual, does that make you "gay"?

Or: If a woman puts on a strap-on, and proceeds to penetrate you with it, does that make you gay?

There seems to be a bit of confusion in the world about just exactly what being gay means. Being gay means engaging in a relationship of a same-sex nature. Enjoying anal stimulation does not make a person gay. Neither, in my opinion, does putting a penis in your mouth. There could be many other reasons for enjoying such an activity.

I do agree fully with one thing I read. People are far too tangled up on labels. Straight, gay, black, white, man, woman, does it really matter? In the end, we are all human. Everybody deserves to be treated with respect, and dignity. I've seen too many examples of people mistreating each other, and mis-labeling each other, in an attempt to hurt someone. Call someone "gay", and you're using it in a derogatory manner, most likely. Heck, I even know of at least one very good person who was irritated enough over the misuse of the term, to have actually left the site. She was very, very offended over it. Something for everybody to keep in mind, when talking to others, is that words have power. Use them wisely.

Indy

I tend to agree that there is--or should be--a distinction, to a degree, between what you've done and what you are. I also think that the realm of fetishism or alternative sexualities--including BDSM-- is inherently different from vanilla sexuality. I consider myself a lesbian, and a submissive. I prefer Dommes, but I don't think the fact that I am perfectly willing to take a male Dom makes me any less a lesbian, and the fact that I might enjoy having sex with him, whether orally or anally, is likewise something distinct from my sexual orientation. Basically, I think BDSM is queer to begin with, and thus the sex of the partners involved is less...consequential. I don't think I could have a vanilla relationship with a man, but in the framework of BDSM, I am okay with it. We have phrases, men who have sex with men, etc. precisely to provide value-neutral terms for this sort of thing.

But as for the anti-labelling, that I'm not so comfortable with. I think labelling is an important way that we make sense of the world. I'm a transsexual woman, and my life story makes sense only when we can put my experiences in the context of a girl growing up being constantly misgendered as a boy by a hostile society. Likewise, I cannot tell my story without distinguishing my identity as a lesbian from a straight identity, or my kink affiliation from vanilla preferences. I don't think we should be jumping to apply labels to OTHER people, but applying them to ourselves can be a constructive practice.

[ejgs42]

Also I think there's a problem with discussing homosexuality as a lifestyle choice. It's no more a lifestyle choice than heterosexuality, after all, and we don't generally frame heterosexual acts as performative in the same way that we label homosexual ones. Just saying.

[CheerfullyInsane]

Also I think there's a problem with discussing homosexuality as a lifestyle choice. It's no more a lifestyle choice than heterosexuality, after all, and we don't generally frame heterosexual acts as performative in the same way that we label homosexual ones. Just saying.

Well, one could argue that an alternative lifestyle (be it gay, BDSM, or any other kink) is by definition a choice. If for no other reason, then simply because it takes a conscious decision to live it in whatever (semi)-public forum one is comfortable with.
Living as a hetero whether one actually is or not, doesn't take a decision. It's simply the default situation at birth.
Not that I'm disagreeing with anything in the above.
Just nitpicking.

If so, what happens if seventy five percent of people suddenly decide they enjoy sex with the same gender?

For one thing, you'd see a serious decline in birth-rates.
But defining normal as what the majority is doing, isn't all that unusual.
Most, if not all, of us tend to use our surroundings as a mirror, and to a certain extent adjust ourselves (or at least our self-images) to conform to this. Human beings are if nothing else social animals, and as such require social acceptance.
This is why immigrants tend to group together in small communities. It's simply easier to live someplace where you don't stick out.
Which is also why it takes so damn long for serious change to occur. You have to push and push, and *maybe* you'll see results in a couple of decades.

Like everything, the first few times you see something that falls outside the norm of what you experience on a regular basis, it's automatically classified subconsciously as different, which usually (thought, not always) means bad.

True. Humans are basically xenophobic. But give it a millenium or two, and we'll have gotten rid of that pesky genetic response.

Our community is a prime example. Years ago, people thought this was a "weird fetish" to be interested in. Now look how mainstream it's becoming.

Oh, I think it's still "weird" to most people. While it has certainly been embraced by the porn-industry, and the number of sites that caters to this particular fetish are undeniably growing, you can also read countless stories about the mental anguish that people go through when they decide to let their partner in on the secret.

As for the whole label-thing......
Well, the PC part of me wants to say that labelling people is wrong.
But on the other hand, labelling people does serve a function. It helps one make sense of the world.
If one has to categorize people by specifying each and every individual quirk and trait, you'd end up with a solid mass of grey. And we sad humans are usually uncomfortable in grey areas. We have a tendency to think in "Us vs. Them" terms.
So labelling people, or lumping them into groups is for better or worse a natural response IMHO.
But if one goes to the extreme and think that an individual is *only* what the category describes, then you need serious psychiatric help.

Then again, I'm not sure how I'd label myself, so what the hell do I know?

CheerfullyInsane

"Something is always wrong, Baldrick. The fact that I'm not a millionaire with the sexual capacity of a rutting rhino is a constant niggle."
-Edmund Blackadder

[bobroberts]

the debate is framed wrong. what we assume to be a real dichotomy - homo versus hetero - is just a social construct. no ones sexuality fits completely into those two tiny categories, so really, there are as many types and forms of desire as there are people in the world.