Masculine Submission

[Egoist]

I've been thinking about the causes of male masochism/submissiveness, and why some submissive men want to be sissified/feminized while others are more traditionally masculine (I fall into the later category myself).

Essentially masculinity can be divided into 2 distinct ideas; giving/protection and dominance. In traditional societies women rely on men, and femininity is associated with idleness and helplessness, and require men to take care of and protect them, while they do what are considered to be simple jobs such as housework and cooking. Femininity is therefore associated with receiving and submissiveness.

Helplessness and idleness do not necessarily mean submissiveness however. A fat lord in his Castle is pretty helpless without his servants, but it is still clear where he is in the power dynamic. I would contend that masculine submissiveness is caused by the giving and protective aspect of masculinity totally overcoming and suppressing the dominant aspect of masculinity. The henpecked husband is a classic example of submissive masculinity. Masculine sadism is caused by the opposite; masculine dominance totally overcoming and suppressing the giving aspect of masculinity. A masculine sadist dominates his submissive physically, taking her rather than protecting her (of course this is usually (and hopefully) done in a consenting context). Feminine dominance occurs when the feminine desire to be cared for totally overcomes and suppresses the submissive aspect of femininity. A feminine dominant is selfish and demanding towards her significant other. Feminine dominance is mental rather than physical (although it may involve bondage or other physical things those still usually require the man to submit and allow her to tie him up) as Mistresses are usually physically weaker than their subs. One of the hottest things in the world in my mind is being dominated by someone you could easily throw over your shoulder.

I should point out that it is entirely possible for a man to be submissive in a feminine way, and a man who wants to be feminized is essentially a man exhibiting female submissiveness. Similarly a woman can be dominant in a masculine way. Sissies would be perfect examples of feminine male submissives. Women can also be dominant in a masculine way as well.

Do you agree with my idea, and do you see yourself fitting into it?

[doctorx]

Yes, I agree with you, in particular when you say "I would contend that masculine submissiveness is caused by the giving and protective aspect of masculinity totally overcoming and suppressing the dominant aspect of masculinity." In fact, I consider myself not a "real" submissive but totally caring abour my woman I find wonderful, and also exciting, the idea of being her "object" in fulfilling her desires and, by them, also giving pleasure to myself.

[mbop]

These are a bit reductive, and I don't particularly agree with the stereotypical binary masculine/feminine framework, but here are my thoughts:

It's a cliche that many of the of men who seek out professional dominatrices are from high powered professions who want to unwind and let go of their anxiety, like CEOs, lawyers, and politicians. There's some self selection here since they also have the money to visit what amounts to high price hookers on a regular basis.

Some men fear or suspect that women aren't as sexual as men, or put on a performance somehow to flatter them. Or they may be tired of women who passively lie there without giving much feedback while he does the work. A dominant woman puts these anxieties to rest by aggressively seeking her pleasure, possibly at the expense of her partner.

A woman sitting on a man's face is a powerful expression of an urgent, demanding female desire. In some ways it is a challenge for the male ego to meet, and men stereotypically enjoy this sort of challenge or competition. Or for example, a woman who slaps or squeezes a man's testicles is directly assaulting the symbolic foundation of masculine power. Can he stand it or will he wither?

In some cultures, including parts of Western culture, a woman's sexuality is seen as dangerous somehow. You can see this in old legends of the succubus, witches, sorceresses, the trope of the sexually loose temptress ready to steal a woman's husband using her feminine wiles, or the woman who entraps the naive man with pregnancy. In some classical cultures, and a couple contemporary ones in other countries, the idea is that a woman's lusts are too powerful because one man can't possibility satisfy her, while one woman can exhaust many men if she is allowed to pursue her desires without restraint. This is seen as dangerous to social stability and is often the excuse used for curtailing women's rights.

In modern media depictions an evil or morally questionable woman will often be sexually aggressive or promiscuous, often trying to flirt or have sex with the male hero and tempt him towards darkness. In the tale of Lilith, one way she showed her wicked rebelliousness was she insisted on only having sex by mounting Adam and being on top, instead of letting him mount her.

So I think giving in to the woman's wanton desire instead of trying to control it might be seen by some men as a turn on because of its taboo nature, or like giving in to some chaotic natural force he doesn't completely understand. He may not be able to put his finger on it, especially in a more enlightened liberal culture you find in the West, but it could be a factor.

For the sissy fetish, it can be an eroticized loss of power or reclaiming of shamed social norms, like women in bed who love being called slut or whore, or minorities who want to be called racial slurs, or gay people who want to be insulted with homophobic slurs. In this case it would be men rejecting the masculine male role in society, at least the bedroom, and finding comfort with a woman who also accepts him.

There's a lot of cultural shame towards the feminine being weak or incompatible with masculinity. So if he wants to feel weak he wants to identify with women in that way. Or he may just have a naturally feminine personality.

A note on traditional culture: women did (and still do, in certain places) a lot of physically demanding farmwork and chores. The world wasn't a nice place and women couldn't afford to be delicate back then. Often many of the men would be off at war, trading, sailing, and so on, so the women had to help run the community. The idea of women being helpless and sheltered away didn't come until societies became richer and more organized. It became a sign of wealth and status to have pale skin and smooth hands, since it meant you were so rich you never had to work outdoors. One of the more extreme examples of this was Chinese foot binding.