Milovana.com

Okay folks, I've been sitting here adding entries to the Urge and as I do this, various teases come up... and as they do, I've been noticing that there are some disturbing Teases out there with photographs of what looks like young girls. (I'm assuming they are over 18, but they look 12 or 13.) Now most teases on Milovana are fabulous, with adults doing lovely things with adults... but there are a few teases which really bother me and make me want to ask: Please stop using photos of young women who look younger than 18! Example: http://www.milovana.com/webteases/showtease.php?id=8388

I am asking the following NOT as a representative of Milovana, but as someone who cares about not just this site, but also making certain that harmful things aren't put out there. So, pretty please with sugar on top, I'm asking each and every webtease author to take a look at their pictures and consider the following:

Even if the model is actually 18, please do not create teases where the fantasy is clearly about getting sexually excited over someone who is younger. Baby-faced, no makeup, not yet developed... these things are fucking creepy when sexualized. I'm not telling you whom you should have fantasies about. I am asking folks here not to create webteases when acting out the webtease is illegal.

Please don't add DETAILS to teases which make it seem like you are sexualizing children. Some details that I find particularly disturbing: indicating that the heroine of your tease is still in High School (if someone is seducing their teacher, make it their college professor not their primary school instructor), Virginal, Innocent, "Little Sister", "Waiting for Mommy and Daddy to get home."

If your story has Incest elements to it (eww), err on the side of caution and use photos were it is really obvious that your heroine is really over 18. preferably at least 21-25. When you have a young woman in a sexual relationship with a parental figure, statistics says that the parent began abusing her as a child. This is not the stuff sexy teases are made of.

The props of childhood have no place in teases. It's one thing to have a woman in pigtails doing ageplay when it's obvious that she's over 19. But when the girl in the picture looks 12 and and is holding a teddy bear, that's fucked up.

Also, there are some elements which have some unpleasant connotations. There was a tease (it's gone now) where the heroine (a very young looking heroine) was blackmailing daddy to buy her a car "when she could drive it." The inference is that she is too young to drive, which means she is under 16.

Thank you for understanding. I understand that there is an issue of context, and there also are is definitely some cultural issues. But there is also a bit of common sense... when the photos come from a source like Emily18, who has many pictures that are a pedophiles wet dream, you can imagine that the connotations towards childhood are there.

Ali

Totally Agree. Hard to police, and tough to draw the line, but where there have been complaints, I've removed teases or links to what clearly looks like child porn.

Alison wrote: I am asking folks here not to create webteases when acting out the webtease is illegal.

I agree, but I just want to point out to the American poster, who is accusing of illegality, that the age of consent is lower than 16 in many countries (eg 14 in Germany, 13 in spain).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

Human wrote:

Alison wrote: I am asking folks here not to create webteases when acting out the webtease is illegal.

I agree, but I just want to point out to the American poster, who is accusing of illegality, that the age of consent is lower than 16 in many countries (eg 14 in Germany, 13 in spain).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

I'm not the person to comment about the Milovana and the legal issue (Seraph0x?) but I do know that any site that site that doesn't comply with the 2257 Regulations and have models who are over 18 won't be up in the US for very long.

But I will reply to this:

First off, if you are in Germany, the age of consent is 16 if the other partner is over 21.

There are some other things I wanted to add to this.

But it's not just about consent. It's about maturity. I was 12 when I was exploring sexuality, and by 13 I has several lovers. (Which was the age of consent at that time.) However, I would argue that I was mature for my age: I had a developed body and I spent a great deal of my time working on Astrophysics and Computer projects at my local university. My style of dress wasn't child-like. I was never carded. I was also the primary wage-earner in my family. I would argue that I wasn't a child.

For me, sexuality is for mature adults... and adulthood and maturity come at different times. The laws on this subject do not always agree with me. Hence the prosecution of a 17 for child-porn for sending sext of herself.

But I take serious issue with young women trying to look even younger, particularly 12 or 13. If you find that you want to masturbate to a photograph of someone whose sexual appeal comes from being child-like, you can do that. But I won't like it, and I'll say so. I think Emily18 is fucking creepy. I think the photos where she is sitting there in clothes designed for 12 year olds, in no make-up, artfully posed to hide any maturity in her body, looking at the camera in an apprehensive sort of way is a pedophile's wet dream, legal or not.

I believe in Freedom of Speech. But I also believe that if you sexualize children, there is something very wrong. I'm not dictating, and I don't have any say on whether or not teases get removed. But I am asking you not to use images of women who are deliberately trying to look like children. Please?

Ali

As far as I know, any teases that feature pictures of underage people, or directly refers to them being underage in the text, are reported and deleted. Fair enough.

A tease that refers to 'still being in school', 'parents in the house' could still refer to a girl over the age of 18. Im sure there are plenty of people that get turned on by the idea of fucking a hot 18 year old, but are repulsed by the idea of paedophilia of any kind.

What you are saying is fair, depiction of child abuse is a wrong, but I think 'naming and shaming' individual teases like this is also wrong. This site carefully monitors such content and is all about exploration of fantasy, as long as its legal. It seems unfair to me that you highlight this 1 tease (with an 18+model and no specific mention of her being under 18 in the story), the implications made for its author are pretty horrible.

There are other fantasies explored on Milovana that can be interpreted as 'creepy' such as cuckholding (spousal abuse), rape, castration etc... lets ban them all!

cumhardy wrote: What you are saying is fair, depiction of child abuse is a wrong, but I think 'naming and shaming' individual teases like this is also wrong.

I concur, I agree with the message, I disagree with the way it was put forward. The tease may have been written by 18 year old, who may very well find the girl in the tease to be his type.

Now, before Allison sends the wolves my way; I just want to point out that I have protested against this too, but without calling the tease author names.
http://www.milovana.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5330

The example wasn't meant to shame anyone... but my post was meaningless without an example.

I was writing for the Urge, and that challenge popped up. And I swear, I thought it was a little girl. It made me uncomfortable.

I'm sorry you think I have wolves. But I don't think little girls should be sexy.

I'm glad to see a dialog on the topic.

I agree with Alison 100% and that was a very good example of the problem sometimes encountered on Milovana. Under 18s have no place on here, regardless of European ages of consent.

Alison wrote:Also, there are some elements which have some unpleasant connotations. There was a tease (it's gone now) where the heroine (a very young looking heroine) was blackmailing daddy to buy her a car "when she could drive it." The inference is that she is too young to drive, which means she is under 16.

I all fairness, age limit for driving may be 16 wherever you live, but don't assume that is the case in the rest of the world

I completely agree with the issue in general tho, then again only sensible way to deal with this is from a strictly factual point of view....

Either the model is over 18 or she isn't.

Edit: I can't help but feel you are being awfully judgmental, especially considering what kind of site you are on. As cumhardy points out, you are technically naming&shaming an author who has done nothing wrong what so ever.

Yanker wrote:I agree with Alison 100% and that was a very good example of the problem sometimes encountered on Milovana. Under 18s have no place on here, regardless of European ages of consent.

Slightly off topic, but out of curiosity, are you seriously saying there are places where the age limit for consenting sex is 18 or even higher?

(and yeah, I realize and agree that question has no direct impact on the topic discussed here. Legal age for working in that industry is 18 or higher pretty much all over the world as far as I know anyway)

Yanker wrote:I agree with Alison 100% and that was a very good example of the problem sometimes encountered on Milovana. Under 18s have no place on here, regardless of European ages of consent.

How is it a good example of the problem, when the model in question is not under 18?

First off on the legal issues. We're incorporated in California, so we're a US company and follow US laws and regulations. Any content depicting minors is deleted the second we hear about it, same goes for content where we cannot track down the 2257 statement.

In the tease in question, the model is Emily18, the site is Emily18.com, they have the required 2257 custodian of records listed and use CCbill, a reputable credit card processor. Given that the site went online in 2004 and gets over 200000 visitors per month means it's certain that they have legitimate papers. Otherwise they would have been shut down or at least lost credit card processing years ago. So from a purely legal standpoint the tease is in the clear.

Now for the moral standpoint. My approach has always been that anything that happens between consenting adults is fair game. So if an authors who is over 18 uses pictures of models who are 18 at the time the pictures were taken, writes something and shares the result with other adults, there is nothing morally wrong with that. I do not buy into the whole thing that playing violent video games makes you shoot people or that reading crime novels makes you go out and murder people. You may find one or two cases where there is indeed a connection, but that does not mean one causes the other and even if it does it has to be a fairly strong correlation to warrant an outright ban. Cars cause a lot of deaths, yet we don't ban them.

Finally, there is the matter of taste. I can easily imagine a tease so tasteless that I would not want it to be anywhere near Milovana. We're a hosting and software company (with zero full-time employees), not a publishing house, so we can't look at the tens of thousands of pages that are published on this site every year. But we do have a vigilant community which points the questionable content out to us. And at that point we have to decide whether to keep it or delete it.

Taste is debatable and I don't want to enforce a certain taste. There is however one related concept that is even enshrined in the law: obscenity. There is no definition for it, so it's anybody's guess what a jury of your peers would find obscene or not. Based on this leeway, we choose not to allow even fictional underage content.

Now along comes a tease like the one we're discussing here. Nothing in it or around it states that the character is underage. But looking at the tease one can't help but get any eerie feeling that she may be. I've spoken to Alison about this and we developed a possible new policy to deal with the teases that blatantly circumvent our existing rules by simply suggesting an underage character without ever saying it outright.

I'd like to hear you guys' take on this. Again, the idea is to delete any tease that uses any kind of props (like children's toys), setting (like a child's room), accent (using baby talk), model's appearance (child-like clothing), etc. with the obvious intention of suggesting that the character is very young or possibly underage. I don't like rules that are hard to pin down, but I like it even less when teases deliberately circumvent the rules by being vague.

So what do you think?

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seraph0x wrote: I'd like to hear you guys' take on this. Again, the idea is to delete any tease that uses any kind of props (like children's toys), setting (like a child's room), accent (using baby talk), model's appearance (child-like clothing), etc. with the obvious intention of suggesting that the character is very young or possibly underage. I don't like rules that are hard to pin down, but I like it even less when teases deliberately circumvent the rules by being vague.

So what do you think?

I'm 100% for it.
Not just because of the ethical issues involved (which may be debated); but because of it may someday land some Milovana user into big trouble: Imagine a scenario when some member is being investigated (in a totally unrelated matter; lets also assume he/she is innocent). His/her computer is grabbed and the HDD searched. The law agencies then see that the user has viewed teases that contained the content in question (not because the user is a pedo, but because the user views all teases, and there is no way of knowing without going into a tease what it contains).
Hell follows for the user. His/her life may be ruined because the local law enforcement now views him/her as a potential predator (the whole tease/exploration theme of Milovana doesnt help either)

There was a movie (fictional) that I saw a while back. A mom was having fun with her (very small kids), and in the moment took pictures of the daughter when daughter was topless and running around. The photos somehow got to child welfare services, and then hell ensued.

Thus, the question is not just whether the tease poster is trying to circumvent the rules, but whether the content may inadvertantly harm some milovana user in the future. While such events are not very likely; there is a non-trivial chance of them happening (ie, imagine a wife coming upon such a tease which the husband had inadvertantly clicked on). The potential outfall is too much.

seraph0x wrote:I'd like to hear you guys' take on this. Again, the idea is to delete any tease that uses any kind of props (like children's toys), setting (like a child's room), accent (using baby talk), model's appearance (child-like clothing), etc. with the obvious intention of suggesting that the character is very young or possibly underage. I don't like rules that are hard to pin down, but I like it even less when teases deliberately circumvent the rules by being vague.

So what do you think?

Sounds good. It's a touchy subject and it's hard to judge sometimes. But it's better to be safe than sorry.